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Kenwood VR-6070 closeout at BB: worth it?


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#101 of 114 OFFLINE   ScottRCapt

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Posted May 05 2003 - 08:08 AM

Lee,

Quote:
What prompted me to post at all was that you warned about the units shutting down and running hot without detailing the situation enough. If you are going to make a claim that the unit shuts down, you need to provide some details for readers to assess the validity of your statement.


I really do not think that I could provide you, or anyone else with more details than I already have. The problems do exist, I am not the only person experiencing them and they are referred to quite commonly in HTF and other forums, as I have shown.

You did slam me with the comment about abusing my equipment. It was a feeble attempt to prove to yourself that your argument had validity by submitting a personal attack against the person who had an opposite view. I think everyone else here knows that, and agrees that HTF is not the place for such juvenile behavior.

I have said over and over again that I am quite happy to be done arguing with you. That does not mean that I will lay down and let you get "the last word" by comparing me to a Honda civic courier driver", the answer is no.

I have made my points in an honest forthright and generally knowledgeable manner. I have done this for those who would not have had the other side of the story if it were not for me. I know people get excited when they buy a new product, I do it myself, and generally they do not want to hear anyone point out its deficiencies.

This does not mean that when you do buy a new product and you are all charged up about it, that you should tout the product above all others in a public forum where people come to get balanced views to make their own decisions.

When you were telling everyone that could read this forum to buy the Kenwood VR-6070, you had only owned the unit yourself for maybe a few days or a week, and I am fairly sure from your posts, you had not yet figured out all the features and controls. You need to have some time under your belt with a receiver before you go telling every new person on the forum that it is the best thing in the world for the money.

It may not be, especially if the person is like me, and figures out a few months down the line that it just will not do what he/she expected it to do. In that case, even at $300 it is a waste of time and money. That was my point all along, and you never conceded that. You did try to make me sound foolish however, and that is why this thread has gone on so long. I don't generally accept being treated as a fool lightly.

You have misquoted me on several very important points in this forum. You have attacked me with comments about abusing my equipment. And you will not let bygones be bygones even though you continually claim that "this thread is long enough already", instead you comeback for one more jab, time after time.

If you own it, and love it, that’s great! Just don't attack the messenger when you hear things you do not like to hear about your favorite new toy.

Time to mature a little, enjoy life and enjoy your sound system. Make babies, whatever you need to do... Just don't come back here and belittle my opinions, my facts, my proof, or my person. You should be above all that. I know I am.Posted Image

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#102 of 114 OFFLINE   Andy_J

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Posted May 05 2003 - 08:36 AM

If anyones interested the best buy in Maple Grove, MN as of yesterday had 1 6060 left for 225 out the door(they also had a 6070 for the same price, but thats in my living room now)

#103 of 114 OFFLINE   Lee Carbray

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Posted May 05 2003 - 09:36 AM

I was going to come read your reply and leave. But after what you have written I can't. I don't even know where to start. Here goes.

I sincerely apologize for saying you abuse your equipment. based on this comment...
Quote:
I like to play action movies and Rock music, both of them at high levels. When the Kenwood is processing DVD video signals and DTS Surround Sound at high levels it tend to want to shut down on me. I never said this was the fault of my unit, I assumed from the specs that all of the units in this family would react similarly if presented with my setup and listening taste.


I thought it was obvious from that you drive your receiver hard. You say that you think most other units similar to yours would do the same thing. If you are going to drive a unit to failure you are definitely not gentle on that piece of equipment. I was sincerely wish you the best with the Sony and that it fits your needs.


Quote:
I really do not think that I could provide you, or anyone else with more details than I already have


You will have to help me out on this one because you have not provided any details. You have provided a vague description of a unit over heating. Shutting down at loud points in movies is not details. Loud is a subjective term. What is loud for you may be quiet for me or vise versa. I do not think this should be difficult. Instead all we get is, other people have complained so I am right. Good, you may be right, prove it with hard facts. You mention facts above but all you have provided are subjective observations on this issue.


Quote:
When you were telling everyone that could read this forum to buy the Kenwood VR-6070, you had only owned the unit yourself for maybe a few days or a week, and I am fairly sure from your posts, you had not yet figured out all the features and controls. You need to have some time under your belt with a receiver before you go telling every new person on the forum that it is the best thing in the world for the money.


I do not know where you came up with this. I do not own a 6070 and never claimed I did. And I never said it was the best thing for the money. If you can actually find a quote where I recommended the unit I would be surprised.


Quote:
It may not be, especially if the person is like me, and figures out a few months down the line that it just will not do what he/she expected it to do. In that case, even at $300 it is a waste of time and money. That was my point all along, and you never conceded that.


That was the point of this thread. And a good point it is because I agree with you $300 is a big waste in my books. I know you are trying to help perspective buyers, and there is nothing wrong with the unit being not right for you. I never once refuted your complaint about the video switching or lack of adjustability did I. All these are valid complaints backed up by facts. I just wanted to clear up the subjective nature of your shutting down issue.

Quote:
continually claim that "this thread is long enough already"


Not continually, just the once, and apparently I was wrong.

Quote:
Just don't come back here and belittle my opinions, my facts, my proof, or my person.


This is a discussion forum, expect to have your opinions, your facts and your proof disagreed with. I never attacked your person.
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#104 of 114 OFFLINE   RobWil

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Posted May 05 2003 - 11:55 AM

i thought you guys kissed and made up a long time ago Posted Image
that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

#105 of 114 OFFLINE   Steve_Moo

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Posted May 05 2003 - 12:54 PM

Wow, doesn't anybody work or sleep around here. I cannot believe there is over 100 replys to this thread. Good luck everyone with there Kenwood. I have mine still hooked up which I will probably keep for another month before trying out something else. If you do see 1 at these prices I do recommend this unit at the $200-$300 range(VR-6070). It is a very good entry level Receiver for $ amount.

Its just amazing the emotion that can go into these threads.

#106 of 114 OFFLINE   Andy_J

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Posted May 05 2003 - 01:24 PM

On a positive note I'd like to say I love my 6070 it was a big step up from my sony 1015. For the price I paid($225) it is definatly worth it I'm not too into HT...yet. But feel it will be a good starter piece. THe menus were a bit confusing to me at first, but I got the hang of it now and I love the remote. I've heard some people say FM reception is a little weak, but I don't have a problem with it.

#107 of 114 OFFLINE   Lucas Dang

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Posted May 05 2003 - 02:51 PM

This is an emotional thread. I tried to also just walk away, but after todays entries, I decided to come back for a little more. Afterall, Capt was wondering why Bill Will hadnt come to his aid earlier, so Im gonna back up Lee on this one.

Scott,
After you gone and accused me of being defensive, under researched, and a Kenwoodaholic (dont own any other kenwood products by the way) It blows me away how you dont see how defensive you are on this thread, and how you really write your posts in a belittling way, yet when someone argues back, suddenly you are the one his attacked and we are juvenile and immature.

For example you wrote:
"Yes, it is certainly worth the sub $300.00 prices I have heard people say they bought them for. (PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE WAY OF CALLING US LIARS)

Are the units still available at those prices at Best Buy? No, I don’t think so. (SNIDE REMARK- yeah you were right, they're not available at that price, they're much cheaper now 225$..)
"

You physically drove to every Best Buy or called everystore and had them check the shelves? How is it that Andy J jsut got one for 225$, if he had followed your claim that they arent available he may have missed out.

Andy J, Shame on you for buying the 6070, didnt you hear from Scott that the 6060 is the same as the 6070 without the Flawed and overhyped unneccessary THX processing and certification?

The most concerning part of this thread as I probably have stated before is that you are Raving(is that too strong of a word, Ii so I will gladly change it [I left out Ranting, and Raving could also mean positive remarks] ) about your 6060 on a thread asking about the 6070. You have tried to provide facts that they are the same, while others have clearly indicated that they are not. Then you went on to denounce THX because this was one of the main differences between my outperforming 6070 and your overheating, clipping, shutting down, likely defective, THX-less 6060. This is where you cross the line of being a disgruntled 6060 owner, to being an Anti-Kenwood 6070 expert. How can you take such a strong stance without "EVER" having experienced a 6070.

I also raised the issue of variables regarding your amp shutting down before, cables, speaker wire, proper connections and impediance load can all effect your particular set up, and you could clarify what decibal marking on the dial you have it turned up to. For all I know you could be turning it up to the Max in an unairconditioned third floor apartment in hot weather, or could have a few loose braids or strands of copper ground wire crossing onto the positive wire on the back of your amp. This is further likely because you later admitted you found different results when you hooked it up again while on this thread.

You state your TV only has one S-video input, and that is why the limited badwidth of the component switching is such a big problem for you. The information I gathered from the forum was that the limited component bandwidth would only effect the HDTV or Progressive Scan output and switching. Why would this effect S-Video? I would also discourage any wideband component users to run their equiptment through a receivers switcher and not being able to have different settings saved to memory for the different wideband component inputs. Your DVD player, HDTV receiver, and XBox or PS2 should all need different picture settings.

I have always shown a respect for the diffences of opinion. This forum would not be helpful without the criticisms. In all honesty, I dont think your posts have been helpful. You go way out of your way to try to convince the reader that the 6070 is significantly flawed when it is professionaly not conisidered so. Then the majority of the non professional experts who did post about the 6070 praised it and confirmed the few known flaws or deficiencies. Your posts indicate that there is a strong majority of dissatified 6070 reviewers which there isnt. I feel this is where you are doing a dis-service to any inquiring readers. You called your selection of excerpts a readers digest version( again demeaning speak), yet it featured only the negative comments you found, while ignoring the outnumbering positive comments.


The only juvenile thing I have done is continually respond to your posts instead of just letting it go.

#108 of 114 OFFLINE   ScottRCapt

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Posted May 05 2003 - 05:01 PM

Lee Carbay,

I apologize...

My prior post, which was addressed to you…

Was not for you.

It was for Lucas Dang.

For that mistake I am humbled and forever regretful, I hope that you can forgive me Lee.

Lucas,

I am driving 6 brand new Cerwin Vega LS series speakers. All rated at 8 ohms, all with circuit protection, all rated @ 92db, all hooked up to 12 gauge stranded copper wire. All connections are hard soldered to Banana Plugs and or speaker pins with gold plate. My subwoofer is self powered @ 250 watts and hooked with an Acoustic Research Sub Cable from the Sub pre-out to a Monster Wire splitter at the back of the sub. The room is air-conditioned, first floor, 75 degrees, with an extra fan. All other connections to the receiver are made with brand new Acoustic Research Digital Coaxial cables to the DVD And TV. The DVD(Sony 850DX 200 Disk DVD) is also hooked up with Monster wire RCA cables connecting each channel individually (6.1 analog from the Sony DVD to the Receiver).The CD Jukebox player (Sony CX-450 400 Disc)is connected via optical TOS link. The tape deck (Kenwood Dual cassette) is connected as normal with RCA in and OUT.Additionally the VHS (RCA-Thompson electronics, my wife got the good one) is hooked up to Video 2 via RCA connections.

Everything is connected so that the cable box can be used or bypassed simply by selecting the input button on my remote. My television and the Kenwood sense the source and process whatever signal is selected. The TV does not do it automatically, but the Kenwood does.

The TV is a 32" RCA tube television leftover from my married life. It has a decent picture, and my next step will be a plasma screen, so this will do for now.

The Kenwood in Dolby Digital at a low volume is showing about -39db. High Volume in my subjective opinion is -20db. When the Kenwood is processing DTS or Dolby Digital signals from the Sony DVD deck and processing the video to the 32" TV it will shut down at peak moments in action films. Nothing has changed that, the more I looked into it, the more I learned. And my research suggests that the demand put on the power supply by digital processing added to the demand from inadequate video processor hardware causes this failure. If I play light Jazz @ 39db, everything is fine. If I watch an analog movie and use Circle surround II (which is magnificent, and I will miss) I have no trouble increasing the volume all the way up to -5 for testing purposes.

Ok, so now you know the facts. Which do not change one thing. THX is still just a marketing tool and has nothing at all to do with the quality of circuits in your unit. Ask Kenwood and they will tell you what I say is true, Receiver A and Receiver B have the very same amp and power supply, the same specs and the same dimensions and same weight. Receiver A has Pre-Outs (which are needed if you want to avoid that wicked distortion) Receiver B does not. Receiver A Says THX on the front and Kenwood had to pay Lucas for that privilege. Just read the THX web site man, you will see where manufactures are asked, "How many units per year will you produce?" "At what price point do you sell your units?" questions like that. They are asking, because they want to know ahead of time how much of a cut they will get from the sales, just because their tag is on the unit.

Let me ask you this... You have a VR-6070THX Receiver right?
Do you have a THX DVD player? No?
Do you have THX speaker wire? No?
Do you have THX Optical Cables? No?
Do you have THX RCA Cables? No?
Do you have THX Speakers? No?
Is your Center Speaker placed exactly where it should be for THX? No?
How About you’re Left and Right Mains? Are they exactly where George Lucas says they should be in your home? No?
And the Surrounds... Are they THX certified? Where are they placed?
Have you built a platform for your couch to sit on? So you can view your screen at the optimum angle? Have you enlarged your living room yet? You might want to look into that, because you must sit exactly 22.72 feet from your screen given all your other variables, strictly speaking THX here.
Wait... Is your TV THX Certified? Well Geez man, that $300 THX receiver looks like it will cost you, cause your going to have to buy and remodel and adjust all these other things to make your home theater a THX theater. ( The previous remarks are not to be taken as factual THX requirements. They are a parody of remarks for those who don't know what THX might require of those who believe in THX and all that George Lucas stands for when it comes to true Home Theater!)

But hey, Don't worry, I don’t know a darn thing... You got it all under control...

Picard says
I have the con!
ENGAGE
Posted Image

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#109 of 114 OFFLINE   Lucas Dang

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Posted May 05 2003 - 06:16 PM

Well gee Scott
I never claimed to have an all THX system, and I understand all parts needed to = THX home theater. I do believe that the THX processing and certification of the 6070 due make it perform = sound = run more eficiently than the 6060, you yourself have given some specs and facts to why this would be. Again you are trying to minimize or cloud the truth instead of bringing clarity.

"Ask Kenwood and they will tell you what I say is true, Receiver A and Receiver B have the very same amp and power supply, the same specs and the same dimensions and same weight. Receiver A has Pre-Outs (which are needed if you want to avoid that wicked distortion) Receiver B does not. Receiver A Says THX on the front and Kenwood had to pay Lucas for that privilege. "

Re-read your own posts, and then some of the others, it has been stated that THX is more than just a sticker on the front of the amp. Yet that is what you keep trying to convince me of. Your own post states that your research found that THX processing affects the power levels and efficiency. The other information is that the THX processing affects several other factors in the receivers performance. Let alone THX EX provides even more additional processing for Dolby Digitl EX.

You show me where it says that THX is just a sticker and I will concede to your point that Reciever A and B are the same. Your arguement is that THX serves no function, does not affect the receiver's performance, processing, ect.


"When you were telling everyone that could read this forum to buy the Kenwood VR-6070, you had only owned the unit yourself for maybe a few days or a week, and I am fairly sure from your posts, you had not yet figured out all the features and controls. You need to have some time under your belt with a receiver before you go telling every new person on the forum that it is the best thing in the world for the money. "

Actually I think setting up the receiver which replaced my Sherwood Newcastle 925 using all the same connections, adding a suuround channel speaker cable, and setting the speaker settings using a THX set up dvd is not so hard. Here you go belittling me, infering that I am too ignorant to be able to set up my own gear. Im not the one who couldnt figure out that my receier was defective. I played ran up to 6 dvd movies a day since Friday, plus some Audio Cds. I ran it all weekend long. Why wouldnt this qualify me to be able to post my recommendation. Just because I didnt get the poor results that you did?


Lee,
how can he have addressed those comments to me. He clearly starts the post with your name, and you were the one who made the statement about him abusing his system. So you apologize, and now he is taking his harsh words back. Re-read it, while his attack may have been meant for me, his arguement was still a return to you.


But hey, you are finally right... you dont know a darn thing...about the 6070 anyway because you have never heard one. You cheaped out for the 6060 and then were dissapointed and haunted (for what appears to be quite a long time) with your choice so you became a bitter anti-Kenwood fanatic and expert on THX processing (or stickers as you put it) and decided to dedicate your time on convincing Kenwood 6070 owners that their 225-279$ outstanding performance receivers sound horrible.

My point was that if your Svideo connection through your receiver and then to your tv is giving out, its not due to low component bandwidth switching, You have a defective unit.

Picard, you can have the con. I am from Vulcan, I have pointed ears that apparently difuses THD distortion, I have a surperior intellect based on Pro Logic 2, and I believe in intergalactic peace. Live long and prosper!

#110 of 114 OFFLINE   Steve_Moo

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Posted May 05 2003 - 09:07 PM

Let me clarify 1 thing on a misconception here on Component switching. the 10mhz is fine for Progressive scan and below and most people would not be able to tell a difference if hooking up HDTV equipment to the Component Inputs of the Kenwood or there HDTV. HDTV recommended Bandwith is 35mhz and you should have 50-100mhz, but if any one has HDTV equipment hook it up through the Receiver and see if you can tell a difference. I did not, I have a Mitsubishi Hi-Def STB(Set Top Box) and a Mitsubishi HDTV and I could not tell a difference with Hi-Def Programing between the the Mits STB being hooked up through the Kenwood or directly into Mits T.V. Again everyone looks into numbers. I do not use my Compononet Switching for my STB but I do use it for my Xbox (which is Progressive and Hi-Def capable) and my GameCube(which is Progressive Scan Capable) so don't let these Nay Sayers convince you not to hook up anything via the Component Switching.

And please don't come back with quotes and numbers on how I'm wrong because my EYES and EARS don't lie to me and I don't look at numbers and reviews. I experiment and check things out myself.

#111 of 114 OFFLINE   ScottRCapt

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Posted May 05 2003 - 09:10 PM

Lucas,

I heard the VR-6070, there you go again, Assuming...

I heard the same thing out of the 6070 as what I heard and bought the 6060; I auditioned both units along with several other brands in an enclosed sound room at a very high-end audio store over several days. The sales manager at the store recommended I buy the 6060 because the THX would not make a difference in his opinion. (I must admit that the same store manager suggested that I look at higher quality units, but I stuck with Kenwood, because, at the time, I was under the impression, it would be backward compatible with my older Kenwood components. Turns out that was a mistake as well).

Yes, THX does more than add a sticker to the front, it limits what the user can do to control his own setup. It sets your bass management at levels you may, or may not appreciate in the future. Other than that, I have DTS, ES, all the sound fields you have, everything but THX bass peak management. By saying that your 6070 has a THX sticker on the front, I am just reinforcing the fact that when all the main circuits are exactly the same, how much different do you really think the two units are?

When you bash my 6060 and me for buying it, are you not saying something similar to "I own a Chevy Trailblazer with a Sunroof and Leather, and you own a Chevy Trailblazer without the sunroof and just cloth seating, so obviously, since my Trailblazer says LS on the outside, it must perform sooooo much better"? They are the same truck inside, same engine, same transmission and same computer. You have a Sunroof and I didn’t buy that option. I am now, in your eyes having buyers envy? I don't think so. Remember, I did not buy when these units were at fire sale prices. So I am not “haunted with my choice” as you say. In my first post about this I honestly say that I bought unwisely and I learned my lesson. “i.e. don’t do a foolish thing like I did, and end up having to just buy another unit 6-8 months later. I have the money to make other choices, and I have done so. Not everyone is as fortunate as I in that department, therefore I set about exposing the weaknesses of the unit, be it 6060 or 6070, the are almost identical.

Additionally, I don't think my unit is defective, I think, from reading the other posts on these forums that it performs pretty much like all the others do. It runs hot, which I have read in many posts. If yours does not, great!

I never once said that the 6070 sounded horrible, if it did, I would not have bought its sibling. I am saying it is not the “be all end all” “best thing since sliced bread” receiver. I don’t think anyone else is at this point. For $225 you really cannot go wrong as long as you are aware of the possible pitfalls later on.

I don't really know if anyone saw this posted previously, so here it is again. I wouldn’t want anyone to think I am a lone wolf on the THX issue.

Surround Formats
Excerpted from: The Home Theater Handbook
http://www.polkaudio....hthandbook.pdf

[b]Home THX components are not necessarily better or worse than other products: they have simply earned THX approval by conforming to all THX-mandated specifications. Once the product has been submitted to Lucasfilm, LTD (the company that developed and licenses the THX standard) and passed a battery of tests, it can wear a "THX Approved" badge. In order to be a true THX system, all the audio components in that system--processor, amplifier, speakers and subwoofer--should be THX-approved. But that does not mean that THX and non-THX components cannot be used together, they can.

And yet, although THX guarantees a certain, minimum standard of certain types of performance, many of the best products are not THX approved. Why? Audio manufacturers often choose to forego THX certification because either A) they believe THX specifications actually compromise performance (for example, many speaker manufacturers assert that THX-mandated dispersion patterns can negatively affect sound quality) or B) they decline to pay, and pass on to their customers, the licensing fees demanded by Lucasfilm.
[b]”

I guess this argument will go on as long as the protestants and the Catholics in Ireland barter over tavern turf. I am not a THX believer, Some of you are… We can leave it at that. Just ask yourself, why is it that the most expensive, the very most desirable equipment out there… Does not have a THX sticker on the front? Is it because those $5,000 Amps and $6,000 Pre- Amps cannot compete with the likes of your Kenwood VR-6070? I don’t think so.

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
-Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001), "Last Chance to See"-

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#112 of 114 OFFLINE   Lee Carbray

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Posted May 06 2003 - 01:02 AM

Lucas, thanks for backing me up.

Scott, I I mean it this time, I am backing off from this thread. As a Steve_Moo pointed out I should be working and sleeping. I accept your above apology and apologies again for anything I had written to upset you.

There now we have kissed and made up.Posted Image
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#113 of 114 OFFLINE   Adam Ray

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Posted May 06 2003 - 01:12 AM

All I know is that back in November Sound and Vision did a review of the 6070 when it was around 600 bucks. THEY WERE ENAMORED WITH IT. Of course they stated the flaws in HD video switching but for someone like me with enough inputs on the back of their tv, I dont care. I am happy that I bought the 6070 at 300 bucks... What a steal compared to when S&V reviewed it. Also I think folks should put more importance on what S&V reviewers are saying instead of someone who is bitter over his 6060.

#114 of 114 OFFLINE   ScottRCapt

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Posted May 06 2003 - 07:28 AM

Audio Review - Re: Kenwood 6070

http://www.audiorevi...50_2718crx.aspx

Ok, maybe some of you will choose to read these reviews, some of you will not.

They are written by just average folks who happen to own the Kenwood 6070, and read the audio review website.

Out of 19 reviews written, I count a full 1/3rd mentioning heat problems and shut down at HT listening levels. Another questions if this unit really has a full 100 watts per channel with all channels driven.

Sound and Vision is an industry rag devoted to advertising products for the manufacturers. The reviews found within are not exactly like reading Consumer Reports; the magazine is supported almost entirely by audio industry advertising. Have you ever read a bad review in S&V?

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
-Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001), "Last Chance to See"-

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