Which do you prefer - and why? DLP, LCD, Plasma or Projection? (1 Viewer)

[Kevin C Brown]

Phil- From what I've seen, it's the half-life itself that is rated at 60k hrs. Not the phosphors themselves. That half-life time itself is "a good point at which to consider its life over," just as you stated. That's why both LCD (not the bulb in RP units) and plasma makers use that 60k hrs number as a good number for the ultimate lifetime of a panel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_display

 

[Reginald Trent]

But there is always the possibility of burn in with a Plasma, LCD and CRT. Burn in is why I got rid of my 55" WS CRT for my DLP. Even though 60,000 hrs id quoted the image in gradually degrading and it takes a new plasma set to get a fresh new image. It only takes the changing of a lamp to return new performance to a DLP. LCD has SDE, dead pixels and other issues.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Ahhh, but you are missing that fact that over those 60k hrs, you can keep recalibrating to "refresh" the picture for a plasma or LCD flat panel. And you don't have to change any hardware. Indeed, since when you properly calibrate a display, the picture is a lot darker than the typical "torch modes" that they ship with on by default, there's actually a lot more room for the brightness to degrade over time.

LCDs do not suffer from burn in, by the way. Only plasma and CRT.

And, with current plasmas, you almost have to abuse it to get any kind of burn in. There was a guy over on AVS who fell asleep with a DVD menu displayed. 8 hrs later he woke up and realized what happened. Yes, he did have some "image retention" over the next few hours which gradually did fade, but after that, his display was as good as it was before that.

DLP can have dead pixels too. DLP chips have arrays of little mirrors on them. Sometimes not all of the mirrors work.

 

[frogpond]

My vote is for front projection. I work at ESPN and everywhere and I do mean everywhere there are LCD's and Plasma's beaming ESPN content on a constant basis to visitors and employees (it's as if no other channels exist). The halls, cafeteria, waiting areas, meeting rooms, edit suites and the list goes on. Almost all the sets have some sort of problem whether its a plasma or LCD of course they are on 24/7.

 

[Reginald Trent]

LCDs do in fact suffer from burn in. I've seen it discussed either here or AVSForum.

 

[Reginald Trent]

With a DLP it is impossible to abuse it to retain a image/burn in, even in torch mode. BTW I have never heard of a DLP having dead mirrors at least to the point where its visible to the naked eye.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

LCDs do not suffer from burn in. There's no phosphor. What you are possibly referring to is "image persistance", and it can be removed by showing a white picture on the screen. It's not permanent either, just that the white screen removes it faster.

And like I said, with an example from AVS forum , you practically have to abuse current plasma displays to exhibit it. And it wasn't permanent in that case either.

 

[Reginald Trent]

So maybe it should be called temporary burn-in that can be removed by watching The Ring or leaving your display with a white screen. So how long does the monitor have to be on white screen to rid itself of the TBI?

BTW burn in with DLP whether temporary or permanant is never a issue.

 

[Leo Kerr]

If I had my druthers... I'd like a D-ILA front projector; one of the good ones.

Barring that, for about the same cost, a good 3-chip DLP front projector. (Both of these are in the $30,000 range.)

I'll take a medium LCD projector over a good single-chip DLP projector... (although, I'll admit that the Christie DS+25 is a pretty nice unit.)

For walking into a room full of "properly set up displays," my eye is drawn to the plasma more than the LCD direct view.

In general, I disapprove of all rear projecting technology, although some of the DLPs are getting better.

LCDs resist abuse longer than Plasmas, but, as has been pointed out, they have other issues.

For reference, I have a LCD front projector at home.

Leo

 

[captaincrash]

Some of wandering thoughts...

... and why... I am looking for the biggest display with a decent quality and some consideration on cost. I just took my spouse over to the local cinephile specialty store where they had a honest to god home theater layout in a 20x15 room (approximately the size I am thinking of working with). They had a 1080p Sony projector, 106" fixed screen, remote dimmed lights, a powered curtain to close off the room, 7 nice leather loungers, and two stacks driving 2 7.1 speaker systems. Oh yeah, they had two stacks of AV equipment - and a summary price sheet on each. The one I recall now said $44,000 for everything on one column plus the screen and Sony projector. I think my spouse sort of paused pensively as I explained what I had in mind.

With that in mind I am gently pressing forward in my little project - and still thinking I will end up with a front projector and fixed screen with some combination of AV equipment and speakers. The existing rear projection 3 LCD panel Epson will go into the family room for casual viewing.

I would have considered a plasma in substitution of a front projector and screen except they don't make them big enough with a low enough cost. $70,000 for a 103" diagonal plasma is not quite my idea of ideal. Besides - this is not available yet - only a 70" plasma in january for $15,000... which is possibly affordable (actually not - even if it were on "sale") and not nearly big enough. Then the store had a 70" RP from Sony for $5500. This was clearly affordable but still not big enough.

Now - the front projection only looked good with a completely darkened room. And the rear projection seemed to be a pretty good compromise with sufficient brightness in a dimly lit display floor or moderate ambient light. And the plasma look bright - almost garish in the same lighting conmditions. So - actually I am accustomed to the performance of a RP LCD screen like what I have at home. It performs well enough.

So - when I add a new system it really must add something significant - and ideally it would FILL a viewing area with a 15x20 or 15x22 size. Two rows of seating means perhaps a 100-120" screen. Nothing in RP or plasma approaches this size - so I am thinking it will be a front projection system. I expect that within a decade we might see bigger plasmas at tolerable prices - even with homes not being able to often take a screen of these sizes. SO - I am only looking to use a front projection system for 5-12 years. Then I imagine I'll begin to chomp at the bit for the emerging big displays that are creeping down in cost.

As such - I don't really want to spend huge money on the screen and projector. I want nice - but not slick exotic and expensive. Nice, yes... under $3 or 4,000 - almost certain. And for the screen... I was still juggling the configurations and considerations. IE, will I get fixed or retractable. If retractible then I want a 4x3 as well as a 16x9 screen. Again ... how much will I spend? For the luxe Stewart motorized screens we're talking $6-8,000 each! But on ebay I just discovered tonight a couple of motorized screens I might try mounted DEEPLY in a soffit that cost under $150! I could have a fixed 4x3 and a motorized 16x9 that would drop in front of it. ANd I was thinking of hiding the fixed 4x3 behind a pair of bookcases which would slide/roll left and right when it was time to view. Of course, this is just the latest whimsical thought on how to set it up.

At any rate - I wanted to re-express my thanks for everyones' comments here. Some were significant and others a bit narrow but interesting, just the same. IE, everyones' remarks have been constructive. I appreciate that.

Some may chuckle at my wandering thoughts - oh well, so be it.

Anyone want to say anything more about their thoughts on front projection?

 

[Reginald Trent]

More food for thought.... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/25/te...nt&oref=slogin

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I nearly stopped reading when I hit this line:

"There is another issue as well, which is that the profit margins on L.C.D. TVs have fallen sharply because of competition."

Hmmm... So Panasonic, which makes both plasma and LCD sets, is extolling the virtues of the one it makes a better profit on over the one where profit margins are falling. I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you.

For anyone who does not have a room of the right size, shape and lighting conditions for front projection to be practical (the vast majority of TV viewers) who isn't married for aesthetic, practical or "coolness" reasons to a flat-panel technology, and who needs a set from 42" to 65", I'm solidly in the LCoS camp. All of the advantages of the other microdisplay technologies and none of the disadvantages. No rainbow effect, no screen door, superb blacks and colors, bright enough to watch in a sunny room, doesn't get washed out or reflect room lighting. LCoS sets can be an excelent value at any size in the range above, particularly if you go with the JVC HD-ILA line instead of the pricier Sony SXRDs.

Regards,

Joe

 

[CoolCatbro]

I was in a store and witnessed the burning out effect of a dimming bulb in a DLP or LED set. I was really shocked at the grey-foggy picture on this new set.

This made me ask the question of "which one doesn't require a $300 bulb to be replaced?"

"All of them require a bulb!" said the SEARS salesguy.
"except the Plasma...but it burns out too..." as he pointed to the foggy-grey screen on the $3000 + HDTV.

"wow, thats pretty bad?" I mentioned.

I assumed, as we both looked at the greyish, foggy Plasma screen slowly dying its death from 18hr a day Demo-life there is room for improvement. These technologies are only starting, I hope.

Maybe next year an HDTV?

I want an HDTV that doesn't require $300 bulbs and doesn't turn into a foggy greyish screen..for starters.

CRT? LCD? DLP with LED lighting?

My TV's really sucking bad, but I just wasn't sold on any of the new technology.........not yet.

 

[Leo Kerr]

A $300 lamp is not a real big ordeal; they do last fairly well if you don't abuse 'em.

Nothing really likes the 18 hours on the show-room floor; not even old CRT sets. I work in a museum environment, and being 'careful,' we can run our plasma screens 9 hours/day every day without major problems for about three-five years (our more recent screens are the Panasonic industrial series 6 screens,) maybe more - given that they're still in pretty good shape.

In our experiences, plasmas don't "go gray." They get dimmer and dimmer, and the color starts to shift a bit, and, of course, the subtitle area shows more wear than any other part, so that gets dimmer faster.

LCD displays are of two types: backlit flat panels or micro projectors. Both require lamps; one takes a small $300-$600 lamp every few thousand hours, the other takes a bunch of thin florescent lamps every (allegedly) 50,000 hours. There are some people using LEDs to backlight their LCDs, but they're few, far between, and expensive.

I have an LED-based single-chip DLP projector at work. Mitsubishi doesn't publish specs on it - at least not like anyone ever sees for projectors. I set it up and did some testing on my own... 17 lumen (open gate) brightness, with a uniformity of about .6. I can't remember what the ANSI contrast was; it wasn't great, but I think it was akin to the bear on the bicycle: it's not how well the bear rides, but that he's riding the bike at all.

In my experience, places like Sears are not the best places to go. My preference is "in the wild" - museums, sports bars, trade shows and the like. Occassionally, you come across a display that makes you say "----! I like that!" So, at least in my case, I'll go visit the display and find out what it is. Sometimes I annoy people in stores in the mall - here I am, coming into a clothing shop to look at the stupid screen hanging from the ceiling!

Places like Best Buy, either with or without the Magnolia corners can also be entertaining, and sometimes interesting. Not always for the right reasons, but interesting and educational, none-the-less.

Leo

 

[ChrisWiggles]

What about $3,000 bulbs?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

LCoS and DLP bulbs go "foggy grey" almost immediately before burning out entirely. Consumers who aren't idiots simply replace them at that point, rather than watching TV like that for weeks at a time. Said consumers also have a spare bulb on hand and don't wait until the bulb burns out and then curse at the inability to watch TV until they can get their hands on a new one. (Just as people who own electric lights keep replacements on hand for them. )

I have a spare on the shelf for my JVC HD-ILA 56" TV, because the warranty period has passed and the original bulb is still in place. It lists for around $250 or $300. I paid $150 for it. When my set eventually shows signs of needing it I'll turn it off, wait for the installed bulb to cool off and install the new one. The next day I'll order another replacement.

As soon as I put that new bulb in my set, it will look as good as it did the day the set was delivered, which is not something that a plasma a claim (correcting for color drift and partially compensating for descreasing inherent brightness by pushing the brightness controls don't really do the same thing.) Similarly even a CRT will degrade over time, and short of replacing the tube in a direct view or the guns in an RP set it will never return to its original state, either.

So I wouldn't consider having to replace a $150 or even $200 bulb every few years to be a major disadvantage for technologies that offer very good value at a given screen size and which become virtually new sets with each new bulb.

Regards,

Joe

 

[CoolCatbro]

I guess my expectations are too high. (or savings account too low?)

the bulbs..
If I had no money concerns $150-300 wouldn't be a big deal.
But as it sits for me, none of these sets sell me because of this cost.

I think the DLP with LED will be a good unit and contender for my money.
LCD too. I'll wait, this technology is right around the corner to being a mass produced item, as I understand it.
DLP...with No bulb, no color wheel. It should come onto the retail shelves pretty cheap with these large piece parts dropped out, in addition to the low maintenance cost.

the bulbs are just a big downer and negative I can't afford and refuse to buy into it. Especially when the new technology is coming out soon.

I was really surprised to see the graying-dimming-foggy looking sets first hand. Reading about it was one thing, actually seeing it beside a pristine HDTV was something else.

Yeah, the stores should probably hide the foggy sets better. I'd be pissed if I was paying for that shelf space and they had my TV's on display all foggy and dim.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

You know, you saw these sets in freakin' Sears, so for all any of us knows they were perfectly fine and had just been hideously maladjusted by some kid who got his hands on the remote. (Or some slightly older kid who worked for the store but was just as clueless. )


No, the stores should turn those sets off and then change the freakin' light bulbs. How difficult a concept is that?. (OK, we are talking Sears here. Sorry, I forgot.)

Still don't see why the thought of spending $150 (not $300 - when did you ever pay full retail instead of street price for anything related to home theater?) a year or two from now freaks you out so much, but to each his own.

But I still wouldn't base my decisions about anything based on something I saw at Sears.

Regards,

Joe

 

[CoolCatbro]

Well, thats about the level I'm at and thats Sears, Best Buy etc...so keep that in mind on my posts too. yeah, its pathetic the setups in many of the stores, very, very good point to keep in mind about the store setups.

The Samsung HL-S56679W is mentioned in another post.
This is the DLP w/LED lighting (no color wheel, no arc bulb).
Hopefully they will have a cheaper version of this set soon.
The bulb companys have bilked everyone's pocket book long enough.imo.

I feel like Rip Van Winkle, my set is 15-17yrs old, its picture sucks big time at this point...which is why I'm starting to look (and my wife is starting to mention it too. ) but on a positive note, I haven't had to put a penny in it either for 15-17yrs. Basic maintenance of cleaning the interior mirror etc.. and fine tuning the board a couple times which I do myself. Pioneer 46" RP.

to each his own...the DLP w/LED seems to be a nice technology; I expect a maintenance free TV for many, many years.

Thats my vote for now...DLP w/LED lighting. Looking for a $1500-1700 price range though. c'mon Samsung and TI....bring that price down!

 

[Paul Clarke]

I believe I may be the party to which Kevin is referring.

When I first got my Zenith ED plasma I had the misfortune of waking to the menu of Sin City (of all things!) onscreen. And to make the story worse it happened on more than one occasion in the first month or two. I quickly got in the habit of selecting my set timer as a safety. But I can happily report my plasma has not a hint of burn-in after 6350 hours and 1.5 years. The set does have a Whitewash feature however and after such episodes (or any long, repetitive menu usage sessions such as during calibration) I am glad for it, even if not needed. Succeeding generations of top tier sets have improved on this problem to the point where many do not even offer screen protection modes any longer.

I prefer plasma simply because it has the most CRT-like PQ available in the most important areas of critical viewing. LCD is getting better but is not there yet. Black level is almost humorous on most of the sets I have viewed with a critical eye and SD especially is very bad on LCD with strong SSE. DLP (great sweet spot PQ) and all RP related technologies suffer from unacceptable off-angle limitations, bulb replacement costs (just look at my hours!), etc. LCD does as well but to a more limited degree. PJ, while delivering great bang for the buck requires dedicated HT space in most applications and is less applicable to normal TV viewing.

Perhaps SED or OLED will bring something which can both enhance the performance capabilities we desire and still eliminate the nagging various issues.

Just my $.02