Superbit: Worth it? (merged thread) (1 Viewer)

[Drew_W]

The Fifth Element Superbit is absolutely stunning in its vidid colours and razor sharp images. It's an excellent reference DVD, both for picture and sound.

I can only speak to a comparison I did of The Rock (regular DVD-R) versus the Criterion. The new transfer was *MUCH* better...the colours were vivid, instead of dull. I wish I could find the screenshot of the sky in the tour scene right at the beginning. DVD5 version it was brownish, on the Criterion it was a nice orange, like it should have been.

Like Adam said, it's more of a thing of the transfer they use as the source. There are movies that have been Superbitted (like Bad Boys) that in my opinion didn't need it. I've got the SE of it for the extras. Love of extras is the other thing. It come down to preference.

On a side note, why were movies like Adaptation and Punch Drunk Love Superbitted? They hardly need it.

 

[Dustin Harrison]

I own both the original and super-bit version of Resident Evil and I can't see very much improvement, nor can I even tell a difference in sound listening to the DTS track.

But that's just my opinion, others may tell you different.

 

[paul:hillsdon]

Thanks all,

Anybody got any photos comparaisons of regular Superbit transfers like of The Patriot or Men In Black?

 

[David Galindo]

I have Starship Troopers in Superbit- and I have yet to find a better replacement to show off the ol' sound system to friends.

I eagerly await the Spiderman Superbit coming out later this year!

 

[JohnRice]

Superbit is both an improvement in some cases and a blatant scam in ALL cases. Some evidence to prove my point.

I had the original Fifth Element which does not have DTS, but has some nice extras. Of course, the Columbia marketing BS says that the video bitrate is so high and with the DTS soundtrack, there is no room for the extras. Well, the disc measures 6.91 GB. So, it could include all the extras of the original disc with absolutely no sacrifice of the quality on the Superbit. If I sound disgusted, I am. Their goal is to sell 2 copies of as many of these movies as possible by lying about what they have done with the Superbit.

Gattaca is an even worse example. This "Superbit" edition, which also has absolutely no extras, measures a whopping 5.91 GB. Columbia even has the gall to say they include only the most basic menus in order to save as much bandwidth as possible for the movie. This disc has 1/3 of its space unused.

Allow me to continue...

Panic Room 5.83 GB

At least Adaptation is 7 GB and has a few meager extras. Not bad for a 2 hour flick.


My favorite is Punch-Drunk Love, which is a Superbit "Deluxe". There is so much on this collection it took two full discs to hold it all. Disc 1, which is dual layer is 6 GB. Hmmm. Disc 2 is....... 1.82 GB. That's right. all of this could have easily been put on 1 disc. I'm sure the decision to use 2 wasn't so they could discontinue the 2 disc version, create a demand for the 2 disc version and then bring out the 2 disc version again at a premium. Oh, wait, they already discontinued the 2 disc version.

All of this wouldn't be such a big deal if Superbit editions didn't generally sell for about $27 each and have all the extras of the $15 versions removed to boot.


Just as a comparison, I'll look at Moulin Rouge!, which I got brand new (2 disc edition) for a whopping $15. Disc 1 is 7.92 GB and the movie is only a couple minutes longer than Fifth Element, and if you want extras, you have the whole second disc which is 7.87 GB! All that for half the price of a Superbit.


I'm not saying Superbits don;t have a better image, and they almost all add DTS, but the rest of the whole idea is marketing BS, and often a blatant ripoff.

 

[Tan Ng]

John Rice


Your observation is very good as I mentioned in a few other threads. There is usually a 2 Gb of free space where Sony could make a full bittrate DTS or add extras. I prefer they make a full bittrate DTS and leave extras for the regular version

 

[JohnRice]

Tan, several of these could have full bitrate DTS and the extras.

 

[Tan Ng]

John Rice

Maybe there is some kind of conspiracy not to utilize full bittrate DTS with a huge amount of free space

 

[Drew_W]

Whenever I do DV work and put it on DVD, I always try to use the entire disc. It seems pointless to waste space where it can offer a quality advantage. I too have noticed this "incompletion" of certain discs, but I didn't know it carried onto Superbit titles. That seems rather ironic, no?

That would be an interesting question to ask a Sony/Columbia rep if ever they have one of those discussions with us HTFers.

 

[Adam Barratt]

The reason Superbit discs don't use 1509kbps DTS isn't because of space restrictions: it's a bandwidth issue. DVD-Video's maximum video bit-rate is 9.8Mbps. Adding a 1509kbps DTS soundtrack and a 448kbps Dolby Digital soundtrack reduces the maximum video bit-rate to 8.1Mbps (including overhead). That's nearly 20%. The disc's absolute capacity isn't even a factor in this equation.

With a 754kbps DTS soundtrack and a 448kbps Dolby Digital soundtrack this reduction drops to less than 10%, which is still a compromise, but preferable.

Most of the time an 8Mbps limit won't be problem, but every now and then it simply won't be enough if you want to have your cake and eat it by increasing fine detail at the same time. Remember that if you reduce filtering to increase detail this requires an increase in video bit-rate. Increasing the video bit-rate doesn't in itself increase picture detail, but rather increasing detail necessitates an increase in bit-rate to avoid compression artefacts.

With a video bit-rate limited to just over 8Mbps the level of detail present would have to be reduced by introducing additional filtering in order to prevent compression artefacts. This would defeat Superbit's 'stated' purpose of presenting maximum video quality (although this is a dubious claim when looking at their actual practices in any case).

Now, if the additional redundant DTS soundtrack were removed (my preferred option) the video bit-rate could exploit over 98% of its bandwidth potential. This would allow discs to be produced that weren't hampered in any way by bandwidth restrictions (although whether this would happen is another story; as mentioned by others above Columbia TriStar aren't exploiting their current Superbits' capabilities fully).

Adam

 

[JohnRice]

Personally, I don't think I really care about full DTS anyway. I'm just annoyed by the downright false marketing.

 

[Tan Ng]

Adam

Why didn't you suggest to ged rid of Dolby digital track, make a Dolby stereo track and preserve DTS and get 98% video bitrate like you want? What did you mean by bandwidth?? so if Sony make a full DTS with its 2 Gig of free space, the DVD won't work in the DVD player??? I don't believe with today technology, they didn't have any way out of bandwidth? Kill the dolby didgital track and Sony get what they want, super picture and great audio. Everyone nowaday has DTS decoder anyway. Why put in an inferior Dolby track which people don't use it anyway and wasted space. Don't tell me people will select Dolby track and listen to it over DTS track in the same Superbit DVD. Most people when they reviewed a DVD which has both DTS and Dolby track always said DTS sound better. Check out the reviews in this forum.

 

[JohnRice]

For one thing, to qualify for the DVD standard, there must be some sort of DD or PCM track. A 750 kb/s DTS audio track plus a 2 chanel DD track at, what, something like 200 kb/s (I don't actually know what is a common 2 channel DD bitrate) is still much higher bandwidth than just a 5.1 DD track at 356kb/s. Even just the DTS track uses much higher bandwidth than the standard DD. Also, I'm not entirely convinced DTS is inherently better anyway.

Of course, I shouldn't have even added to the tired old DD/DTS flame.

 

[CharlieC]

The biggest video improvement of Superbit over the regular version can be quantified by the reduction in edge enhencement, which is more evident in larger display, well as the increase in definition and details. If you know what to look for, you will see it right away.

Here is a comparison of Spiderman R3 Superbit and regular version. Near the bottom of this article is a comparison of screen capture. Left is the Superbit, and right is the regular version:
http://www.dng.idv.tw/dvdreviews/200...erman_sb01.htm

Here is another comparison between Fast and Furious R4 Superbit and R1 regular version. Near the middle of this article is a comparison of screen capture. Left is the Superbit, and right is the regular version:
http://www.dng.idv.tw/dvdreviews/200...furious_sb.htm

Here is another comparsion between Air Force One Superbit and regular version

Superbit
http://www.dng.idv.tw/dvdreviews/200...n_superbit.jpg

Regular Version
http://www.dng.idv.tw/dvdreviews/200..._08/oldman.jpg

Personally, before I got my projector, I bought Superbit for the dts track, which is almost always absent in Columbia Tristar's regular releases. Now, there is more incentive for me to wait for the eventual superbit release of major Columbia-Tristar flicks.

 

[Adam Barratt]

Tan, even if the Dolby Digital soundtracks used were reduced to 2.0/192kbps the presence of a DTS soundtrack would reduce available video bandwidth to 93%. Even at its smallest it consumes a disproportionate amount of bandwidth relative to its return.

As stated above either a PCM or Dolby Digital soundtrack must be included to meet format specifications. A PCM soundtrack would consume 1536kbps, more than a DTS soundtrack at its higher bit-rate. Dolby Digital is therefore much more likely to be used. DTS decoders and soundtracks are not required for players nor discs, and there is a very large base of users without DTS capability. On the other hand, every DVD player is capable of reproducing Dolby Digital soundtracks.

As I tried to say before, bandwidth and disc capacity are two separate issues. Bandwidth is the maximum available throughput of data and cannot be changed, regardless of the disc type used.

The 754kbps DTS soundtracks on Superbit DVDs are simply duplicating the Dolby Digital soundtrack, while consuming 1.5 times the space. That makes them redundant in my opinion. I disagree with you statement that the Dolby Digital soundtracks are inferior: DTS soundtracks on Superbit discs offer no measurable improvements (dynamic range, channel separation etc.) over their Dolby Digital equivalents. On the other hand, they have decidedly lower frequency response on paper and in the real world. As Superbit discs use the same master for both Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks, given the choice I always listen to the Dolby Digital version, and I'm certainly not alone.

Adam

 

[Darren Haycock]

What region are you talking about because the original release of The Fifth Element in Region 1 is totally barebones, so the Superbit version with DTS is definitely the better option...

 

[Tan Ng]

Adam

I don't think Dolby digital as good as DTS. HD-DVD will prove DTS is much better in a few years when DTS can be full bittrate. Many people and not just me do think DTS are better and in a same disc which has both DTS and Dolby , they all said that DTS offered sonic improvement over Dolby. Many reviews on this forum did show that. I can see Dolby's life will be dead in a few years when HD-DVD comes.

 

[Adam Barratt]

Tan, DTS has been available in one of its two higher bit-rate variants for around seven years now and the debate about whether or not it's better than Dolby Digital has persisted. I don't think the return of 1509kbps DTS on an HD format would change things much.

As an industry standardised and very compact format, Dolby Digital inevitably has a very long life ahead of it.

Adam

 

[PhilBoy]

For all dual-layered DVD's why don't the authors determine the total usable disc space, subtract whatever space is required for audio (DD, dts, PCM), and determine the video bitrate with the space that's left up to the maximum.

Seem's elementary to me.

 

[Chuck Stephens]

I've been debating for the past few weeks on replacing a rotted LD copy of the Fifth Element with either the superbit version or the regular version. I don't have an HDTV and the regular version can be had for about 10 bucks at wal-mart around here. I was all set to lay down the cash for the superbit version in anticipation of getting a better video display in the next year but his thread has me rethinking that idea. Is the video improvement noticeable on smaller screens or is it only apparent on larger displays?

As for the dts issue, I've worked as a projectionist for 8 years almost so I've heard alot of full bitrate dts tracks in my day as well as full bitrate dolby tracks. On most films there is a slight difference in bass response with the dts tending to go a tad deeper. However, I couldn't tell you which sounds more like the mix that was heard on the original mixing stage. Maybe hd-dvd can more fully duplicate that and maybe not. Just my .02 cents