Hero (Ying xiong) Discussion Thread (2 Viewers)

[rich_d]

Saw it today. Like it, but felt the story kept it from being really good.



I read the other opinions. I guess I fall in the category of believing that if you want to send a message use Western Union. I also think it seems fairly illogical to care about the factual history of China when presented with a work of fantasy.



The story? Heck, I don't mind seeing two warriors working their way through hundreds of guards, that goes with the territory of the genre. However, don't ask me to think it's at all plausible that one of the warriors has this grand epiphany when he is trying to kill someone.

 

[Tony_Ramos]

Rogozhin:



I appreciate your textbook definition, but I would like to interpret it, and perhaps will agree:



The Categorical Imperative, or Golden Rule, necessarily dictates that you must "do unto others as you would have done unto you." Therefore, you must never use others as a means to an end, b/c you would not want the same done to you. Therefore, innocent individuals cannot be executed for the sake of a cause.



Nameless committed no crime, therefore, to the preponderance of Western philosophers, the Emperor is evil for having executed him, not to mention the innocent school he destroyed, and other villagers, i.e. Nameless' family.





I may not agree with the film's emphasis of the collective over the few, however, I still believe it is a wonderful film. The part of the story I liked the most was the warriors' journey to becoming Taoist.

 

[ThomasC]

Zhang Yimou choreographed part of all of the Chinese presentation at the Closing Ceremony of the Olympic Games, so you might want to check that out.

It airs about 2 hours and 40 minutes into the coverage. East Coasters should be able to catch it on a rerun that airs after the late local news.

 

[Yee-Ming]

quote:Each of them believed that they were destined to unite ‘All Under Heaven’, a phrase taken to mean civilization as they knew it.

You'd have to take into account the Chinese mindset, that China was the be-all and end-all, hence the translation "our land" rather than the literal "all under heaven" is probably contextually correct.



Remember that to this day, the Chinese name for their country is "the Middle Kingdom" -- the English "China" comes from "Chin", now transliterated in Hanyu Pinyin as "Qin", the kingdom of the first Emperor. BTW, references to "the Emperor" in Hero should actually be to the King of Qin, it was only after he "unified China" that he became Emperor.

 

[Brian Thibodeau]

quote:though I disagree with Brian T's much earlier assessment that the discussion regarding The Passion wasn't inspired

As evidenced by the discussion in this thread since the film opened, I still tend to think HERO inherently inspires a much more thoughtful, intelligent and most importantly, reasoned discourse (Utiltarianism vs Kantism? Wow!!) on very real modern and historical issues as opposed to THE PASSION, which (as evidenced by the myriad pages in threads devoted to that film) tends to, by its very nature as one powerful man’s declaration of faith, boil all discussion down to the same-old regressive “I believe/well, I don’t believe” school of debate, with decidedly more favouritism being shown the former than the latter (“if you don’t believe, why are you in this thread” etc.). It’s not that it wasn’t inspired, I suppose; it’s just that after dozens of pages, little true progress was made by either side: in fact, that film polarized schools of thought in ways that HERO could never hope to.



In this thread, both sides of the argument, at least so far, have been allowed to discuss the political implications of this film - and they ARE there for the discussion and indeed MUST be discussed - without offending other posters or the moderators of the web site (again, YET). This is a film in which the political implications are EXTREMELY important to a better understanding of the culture in which Zhang Yimou and other artisans like him operate. Certainly, an understanding of the era and its people depicted in THE PASSION, and indeed, familiarity with the two single books from which is all seems to be drawn, is most beneficial to understanding the film and its implications; its just that we in the west (and now many other parts of the world) have been debating that Truth for centuries without much rest or decrease in suffering. Meanwhile, there are whole other, equally important political/philosophical issues in the world, just as big, just as dangerous, just as revelatory for millions of people, and for which many in the west couldn’t care LESS since they think they’ve got it all figured out (these could be the people mentioned in a recent post who got fidgety and talked during the non-action scenes of this film). HERO, though an admittedly fantastical movie on the surface, is a window into very real, very provable (albeit debatable) history of a country and culture we collectively have assumed much about over the years, but truly know little about. That just makes me, personally, sad. But then, having read the last couple pages of this thread after being away a couple of days, I have some hope...



I’ve seen many “foreign” films over the years that confronted me with philosophies, politics and dogmas that were alien to me. In nearly every case, they left me craving a better understanding of the culture in which they were made, a craving I satisfied online, at the local library, talking to acquaintances, etc. HERO is just the latest of many. I already understand the culture that created THE PASSION very, very well, and personally, I’ve wanted to see how the other two-thirds of the world think before I jump to any conclusions about Truths and Inspirations.



But that’s just me. And I know it.

 

[Lew Crippen]

I would suggest that in addition to being able to look at this film as a political statement or as one of moreal philosophy, it can also be viewed as a tragedy (in the classic sense). The only thing arguably missing is that the nameless hero (coming from an anonymous background, is not sufficiently highly placed to tragically fall. Since however, he is shown at the beginning as being elevated above all others who were revered (and feared), I think we may consider his fall tragic.



A fine, multi-layered film.

 

[Dome Vongvises]

What I know of Chinese history comes from the computer game Romance of the Three Kingdoms in which you try to unify China as one.



Otherwise, I barely have an inkling of the political and historical subtext of the film. But I still enjoyed this film, and my favorite part of the film is probably the cinematography. Colorful is an understatement.



For you folks that watch The Simpsons, did any of you all get the vibe that Broken Sword was like Groundskeeper Willie a la getting stabbed in different storylines?

 

[Angelo.M]

As I wrote in the "review" thread, I loved this film (both the domestic and the Chinese releases) and consider myself something of a devotee of Yimou's work (Raise the Red Lantern being one of my very favorite films).



I think I'll rewatch Ashes of Time tonight.

 

[Lew Crippen]

quote: The Categorical Imperative, or Golden Rule, necessarily dictates that you must "do unto others as you would have done unto you." Therefore, you must never use others as a means to an end, b/c you would not want the same done to you. Therefore, innocent individuals cannot be executed for the sake of a cause.

Nameless committed no crime, therefore, to the preponderance of Western philosophers, the Emperor is evil for having executed him, not to mention the innocent school he destroyed, and other villagers, i.e. Nameless' family.

I would suggest that the emperor did indeed do what he would have done to him. It will take a bit to explain why this is so (at least in my opinion).

We know at the beginning of the film that everyone (or at least three significant people have died (been killed). And from the tension and the staging (only the nameless hero and the Emperor are present in the great hall) that one of them too will die.

There is some distraction and misdirection as the story is told and retold first from the nameless one’s POV, then from the Emperor’s surmise and so on, but unlike Rashômon there is no confujsion as to which version is true (or if any are true or if all are true): the truth is the final version, where everyone is robed in white—the very symbol of truth and purity. The preceding versions are essentially dreams or beliefs that might have been true—but are not, although their untruthfulness is essential to a complete understanding of what is true.

It follows that what we are told by those in white must be true—and we are told by Moon (Zhang Ziyi) that Broken Sword (Tony Leung) is never wrong. We know also that he is never wrong from the Emperor (who comes to understand his calligraphy) and from the fact that he is only defeated in combat when he chooses to be defeated—not by superior force (and here, as in all such films of this genre, superior combat skill is equated with wisdom and correctness).

We have been told three times that Broken Sword is never wrong. He is therefore correct in his assessment that the Emperor must not be assassinated.

As it turns out, the Nameless One (Jet Li) comes to that same realization and does not assassinate the Emperor. This so the Emperor can unite China.

The Emperor shares this knowledge (indeed he may be just a heartbeat ahead of the Nameless One in his understanding).

They both know that the only reason for the Emperor to live is to unite China. And that he cannot unite China unless he is perceived as strong and obeying the law by his subjects (don’t forget we are shown back at the beginning of the film, that the Emperor give rewards according to the law)—he therefore must also obey the strictures of the law in meting out punishment, not only because he must obey his own law, but so that he will be able to fulfill his destiny (of uniting China).

Were he not to order the Nameless One’s execution, he would not be able to fulfill his destiny and the individual sacrifice of Broken Sword would be for naught (as would the Nameless One’s).

He completely understands this, and it goes without saying (though I write it anyway), that the Nameless One (who, like Broken Sword is enlightened) fully understands the consequences of not assassinating the Emperor—that he will be executed.

So this is no evil action, but the inevitable conclusion of what was presented to us during the first five minutes of the film.

The Greeks would understand all of this (at least from the personal perspective).

I’d apologize for deconstructing the film to this degree, but I could not figure out how to explain why the Emperor had not committed an act of evil otherwise.

BTW, I find it interesting that the discussion has centered on Western philosophical thought.

 

[Lew Crippen]

quote:I think I'll rewatch Ashes of Time tonight.

Now I think that this is a hard film. And another beautiful job by Christopher Doyle as DP. My son and I were talking about these films yesterday—we thought it interesting that the ‘accessible’ (to Westerners) director, Wong Kar Wai, with films like Chungking Express and In the Mood for Love made the epic, martial arts genre film that was difficult, while the less friendly (to Westeners) directors made very accessible genre pictures.

 

[Sten F]

Number one at this weekends box office with 18 millions... who would have thought of that. That´s just great news!

 

[Chris_Morris]

Hopefully this will lead the way for a quicker US release of House of Flying Daggers.

Chris

 

[ThomasC]

quote:Hopefully this will lead the way for a quicker US release of House of Flying Daggers.

It most likely won't. It's scheduled in December to give it better chances at Oscar nominations.

 

[Jason GT]

quote:I think I'll rewatch Ashes of Time tonight.

Angelo - how are you watching this movie?



From what I understand the sole DVD release is ridiculously butchered. Is there a release that I should know about, and if so, where can I get it?



Thanks!

 

[Tony_Ramos]

Angelo M:



I'm gratified that you thought enough of my argument to analyze the flim again!



Here is the problem: if we are going to continue to apply Western philosophers to the movie, you must know that Kant's view of justice was: an eye for an eye. He advocated what's called retributive justice, where punishment is demanded by crime, and it must be proportional. Therefore, even though Nameless willingly allowed himself to be executed for the sake of his ideal, being executed was an excessive penalty for having feigned assault on the king.



But, I understand the melodramatic function of what nameless did. I also understand why what the King of Qin does is a Taoist ideal: he fights that he may put away his sword.



It's just this icky vibe I get from any Chinese history: the subservience of the individual to the family/state/collective.

 

[TheLongshot]

Thank you, Lew, for your analysis. I picked up on that when I first saw the film, that for the Emperor to solidify his position, his enemies must die. This is especially true of the man who very visibly attempted to take the Emperor's life.



Nice to hear that it did well this weekend. Too bad it wasn't done last year, when it actually would have done some good....



Jason

 

[Lew Crippen]

quote:From what I understand the sole DVD release is ridiculously butchered. Is there a release that I should know about, and if so, where can I get it?

There are (at least) two DVDs available. Get the ‘Mei Ah #DVD-068—a Hong Kong label. It is at least letterboxed (the English market version is terrible).



There are plenty of video problems with the Mei Ah release (burned in subtitles and letterboxed), but at least the composition is correct and it has not been reedited (I don’t know if the other version has any extra cuts or not—but you would not be at all pleased with the composition).

 

[Angelo.M]

quote:

Angelo - how are you watching [Ashes of Time]?

Good question. I have the HK version: [url=http://www.hkflix.com/xq/asp/filmID.44/qx/details.htm]http://www.hkflix.com/xq/asp/filmID.44/qx/details.htm[/url].

I think the other version available on these shores is discontinued.

 

[Shawn_McD]

Eh, you don't have to wait for foreign films to be "Released" in the US. Just go to an asian video store, they get imports direct from Asia as soon as asia releases them



Anyways, whole point of the film is easy to understand.



The assassin(s) realize there is nothing to benefit from war, and that a unified country will bring peace...and the Emperor, is the guy to do it. The Emperor just happens to be from the other country thats the only caveat.

 

[Brian Thibodeau]

Apropos of nothing, really, that's been said in this thread, I'd just like to mention how much more I enjoyed Tony Ching Siu-tung's action choreograpy in this film over Yuen Woo-ping's work in CROUCHING TIGER. I'm a big fan of both men, but for me, Ching's work just has that little extra dazzle that's missing in Yuen's work. It might sound like I'm comparing apples to apples, but there are distinct differences in how the men choreograph and design sequences. While I've found Yuen's full-blown directorial efforts (IN THE LINE OF DUTY 4, IRON MONKEY, TIGER CAGE) to be a little bigger, better written and all-around more solid than Tony's, Tony knows how to exploit the material far better and just have a lot of fun in movies like CONMEN IN TOKYO, NAKED WEAPON, DR. WAI and the ROYAL TRAMP movies. His action choreography also has that added dose of insouciant, logic-defying "cool" that I'm still working overtime to properly define.



Just a thought...