Dumbo lays an egg. (1 Viewer)

[Rain]

Offerred up as food for thought:
1. http://www.imdb.com
"Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." - Imagine by John Lennon
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[Zack Scott]

I have a feeling that those cuts that were done in the 60's are gone forever. If they do have them, the audio is probably already gone (ala FAntasia ROadshow) and Disney would have to get a voice double which will probably piss some purists off also (ala Fantasia) A double edged sword for Disney.

 

[ScottR]

I for one don't believe that the scenes were ever in the release version. For one thing, Dumbo is often quoted as being one of the shortest of the animated features...if one added in the additional scenes with narration that figure would probably not hold true as most Disney features of the time averaged a running time of around 75 minutes. Also, it would seem that the flow of the film would have been harmed without the scenes (i.e. the "point" of the scenes). Lastly, no book about Disney has talked about these scenes. Leonard Maltin's The Disney Films, John Grant's Encyclopedia of Animated Characters, and David Smith's (Disney's premiere archivist) Disney A to Z do not even touch on it, even though the first two books I cited do talk about the Fantasia deletions. Oh yeah, and the fact that the crows are even in the film at all do not support a claim that groups were complaining about stereotypes. I understand that the final scene with the crows is a pivotal plot device though. At any rate, I have a strong feeling that the Dumbo we are seeing on DVD is indeed the same version seen by audiences in 1941, unaltered.

 

[Patrick McCart]

Scott MacQueen indeed said that the "extra" crow scenes were never in the movie.
Why would the movie look bad on DVD? I remember past VHS and TV editions looking pretty good. Dumbo should have an exceptional transfer since it saved the Disney studio (along with the first re-release of Snow White) after Fantasia and Pinnochio tanked.
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[Colin Jacobson]

The fade outs in most of Disney's early animated features seem "awkward." It's been a while since I've seen Dumbo, so I'll pay attention to this when I watch tonite.

These fade-outs seemed particularly awkward, I must admit. Maybe it's the Oliver Stone in me, looking for evidence of edited footage, but they flowed less well than usual. Personally, I think the DVD offers the original cut, for there's simply too little evidence of the edits, but the fade-outs do make me suspicious.
And please have yourself a beer while you view it!
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Colin Jacobson
DVD Movie Guide
www.dvdmg.com

 

[Craig Beam]

...or a FEW beers, to get the full "pink elephants" effect.

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[Mark Zimmer]

I intend to have several beers, thank you.
Since Scott MacQueen knows about the cut material (whether pre-release or later), then it existed once. The question remains whether that material still exists, and if so, why it wasn't included as extras on this disc. Its absence from what is otherwise a pretty packed SE would hint that it doesn't survive, but it would be nice to get a definitive answer.
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"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

Since Scott MacQueen knows about the cut material (whether pre-release or later), then it existed once.

There was a reason that Patrick put quotes around "extra". This reminds me of Monty Python's Life of Brian (paraphrased from memory):
Crowd: Messiah! Messiah!
Brian: I am not the Messiah.
Crowd member: Only the true Messiah would deny his divinity
Brian : Alright then I am the Messiah
Crowd: Messiah! Messiah!
If one wants to believe something badly enough, one will create sufficient subtext. I eagerly await the Oliver Stone making of Dumbo featurette on the next DVD.
Regards,
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Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA

 

[Rob W]

Let's do the math. Every source I've ever seen has listed Dumbo as running 64 minutes. The DVD has a running time of 63:33, which is consistent since times are always rounded off to the next minute in listings. Unless this so-called missing footage is remarkably short, I'm content to believe we have the original cut.
I'm also extremely happy with this transfer. It's razor sharp and the film grain gives it a texture consistent with a film print. I prefer film to look like film.

 

[Mark Zimmer]

Someone asked Scott MacQueen (supervisor for Disney restorations) and he said that those scenes were not in the final cut.

My reading of Patrick's post from the other thread was that Scott MacQueen implied the additional crow scenes were cut prior to the original release, not that they never existed at all. That would make sense, because the Dumbo storybook my mom has from circa 1941 includes much more material with the crows--though as I recall, that's the only significant difference from the current film version, but there's also some additional minor business with Timothy--and the book would most likely have been written from a prerelease print, in which case the film might have contained additional crow material cut for the release. If she didn't live 200 miles away, I would post the storybook material. I will if I get a chance. Or maybe this storybook version is where these recollections of seeing the crow scenes in the movie are coming from and they never existed anywhere else....
Does someone know MacQueen? Can we get a straight and complete answer on this for once and for all? Did these supposed additional crow scenes EVER exist in ANY form, while the film was in production? If so, is there anything still extant?
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"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."

 

[Rain]

And please have yourself a beer while you view it!

I had many.
As for the DVD itself, I think it looks fantastic. Those quibbling about the picture quality are (IMHO) being unreasonably picky. The film is old...get over it. I personaly have never seen it look so vibrant.
I love this movie and am thrilled to have this DVD.
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[cafink]

I'm still a little confused. Based on what I see here, it seems reasonable to assume that the DVD is the original cut of the film. What I want to know is: Does the DVD differ from any other versions of the movie? Or is this the only version to ever be released on home video?

 

[William Miller]

How old a picture is has nothing to do with how good it can look. Citizen Kane is just as "old" and the DVD is beautiful. Snow White is older and it looks pristine.
And elephants can lay eggs. Where do you think baby elephants come from...the stork?
And while grain does make it look more like a film, it still looks bad when there is too much of it. Have you watched your Bride of Frankenstein DVD lately?
And 2 Disney film buff friends of mine insist that somewhere between the film's release and today, there were several small trims involving the crows. But I can't get any exact details from them as to what they are. So, the confusion goes on. But why is everyone so stunned that Disney would do this after all of the affirmed edits in other Disney films?
And let's not forget about Song of the South where they have trimmed the entire movie!
And that's all for now.

 

[Joseph Bolus]

I would like to state, for the record, that I, too, recall the missing "Crow" scenes in Dumbo.
I very clearly recall "Jim Crow" (who's voice was provided by Cliff Edwards who provided the voice of Jiminy Cricket in Pinocchio) appearing in at least three strategic points in the movie prior to the "Dumbo flying training sequence".
I'm willing to concede that these scenes have not been part of any Home Video release of Dumbo; and I can't recall if I saw the missing scenes on a Disney TV airing of the movie in the 60's or on a theatrical re-release, but I have a hard time believing my brain could just conjure those scenes out of thin air.
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Joseph
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"As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy, than to create."
[Edited last by Joseph Bolus on October 26, 2001 at 02:09 PM]

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

but I have a hard time believing my brain could just conjure those scenes out of thin air.

See what happened in this (spoiler-filled) thread about Hannibal. I'm not really taking sides, but I am a little skeptical since you are talking about a memory that is at least 25 years old. The Crow narration/framing could be a device from another medium other than the film.
I'm willing to be convinced, but I have not gotten there yet.
Regards,
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Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA

 

[Patrick McCart]

No no no....
Someone who heard about this urban legend and asked Mr. MacQueen about it. He said that those extra crow scenes are not part of the movie.
He knows more about the history of the Disney film elements that anyone else. If there were more crow scenes (my opinion) that were only put in pencil test and/or animatic form (like many of the deleted scenes on the Snow White DVD)
Also, the fact that Disney was working on Fantasia and Pinnochio from 1938-1940 (Pinocchio was finished by Febuary. They finished Fantasia DAYS before the premire!!) shows that they had roughly a year to work on Dumbo since it was released in 1941.
Disney has openly admitted to the stuff cut out of Fantasia, so why would they cover up the less-offensive and more well known crows? Heck, even SHREK references the crows!
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[Mark Zimmer]

Patrick, I think you left the end off the sentence in the third paragraph....you were saying?
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"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."
[Edited last by Mark Zimmer on October 26, 2001 at 04:53 PM]

 

[george kaplan]

Just a couple of points.
1) After doing a little research and finding reviews of the movie from 1941 citing a 64 minute run time, I am convinced that what we have is the original theatrical release
2) That doesn't mean that additional crow scenes weren't dropped before release, and couldn't have been put back into a version floating around UCLA film school.
3) Scott MacQueen's denial (secondhand) does not say that the scenes don't exist. Perhaps that what he meant, or perhaps he chose his words carefully (assuming he wasn't misquoted ).
4) Some members of this forum have storybooks, others have video with these scenes. Hopefully some screenshots will be put up soon. Until we see these with our own eyes, many here will remain skeptical (although I believe they exist).
5) I don't think Disney is covering up any Dumbo scenes. As I said, they have released the original theatrical version. But they may be unaware of or simply not mentioning other crow scenes deleted before release.
6) I am going to enjoy my dvd of Dumbo since even if these other scenes are proven to exist, they won't show up on a dvd until after Song of the South.

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[Rain]

Thanks for the info, George.
I'm so glad that you ended up buying the disc. Way back when I did the Disney Tourney over in Polls, I recall you voting against Dumbo partly due to the alleged censorship. I think I should demand a recount.
After seeing it yesterday for the first time in a while, I can say with absolute certainty that it remains my all time favourite animated feature. And contrary to the nay-sayers, I think it looks wonderful.
Funny...people complain when the grain is removed from Snow White, then complain when it's left in on Dumbo. Bah!
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"Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." - Imagine by John Lennon
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[Marty Christion]

The mention of the Dumbo storybook makes this more similar to the Biggs footage in Star Wars.
Remember, we're talking about a time before home video for these events. In those days, if one were to enjoy a movie, the only way to satisfy interest in the film would be books, posters, trading cards, toys, radio dramas etc. Not to mention seeing the film as many times as possible. But you had no still frame or rewind when watching the movie. So those of us who were kids when Star Wars came out might have seen the movie a bunch of times, but we spent a lot more time looking over the comics and storybooks that actually showed the Biggs footage. Thus, some people's memory of the film "includes" these scenes.
Since reference has been made to these scenes being suggested by Dumbo storybooks, it is entirely possible these scenes appear only in these books, and were incorporated into the film only in the memories of the readers. Also, it's possible these scenes were added to the books without ever being envisioned for the film, either to increase the visiblity of the (popular?) crows, or condense the story. Either way, I doubt these scenes were ever fully animated before the film's release, and cut, as most scenes are cut from animation long before the final stages are completed.
Not to mention the film was so short, they would have used every last foot of film available to pad it out...