David Beckham: I don't get it (1 Viewer)

[MarkHastings]

I was thinking of something...

Not to get too political here, but I wonder if soccer's lack of popularity is due to the fact that Americans don't view it as an American sport? Baseball and Football are "American Pastimes" and anything that isn't American, we tend to lose interest.

 

[Andy_Bu]

Hi Mark,

There may be something to that.

Look at Formula 1 vs NASCAR as a perfect example.

Even hockey (which is certainly more Canadian than American) has slipped significantly over the past couple of decades. It used to be a rock solid 4th major sport, but now many only talk about the "big 3" instead of the old "big 4"

Andy

 

[PhillJones]

I'm not even sure that would work. Lance Armstrong was practically messianic and yet kids aren't asking for bikes with drop handlebars for Christmas.

 

[Andy_Bu]

I am not sure that is a good comparison because there is no audiance for bicycling in this country already at a certain level to grow. You are basically starting at scratch. It would be more akin to Pele coming in the mid 70's when soccer was just starting out and had no real audiance or viewership.

Every week millions of people in American watch games on tv and attend games across the country. Attendance is obviously higher in the April-Nov time frame than during the winter when most outdoor soccer takes a break in the country.


Andy

 

[MarkHastings]

Look at how hard a time the NHL had several years back, and that's when Gretsky was still playing!! If the NHL is any indication on how something popular can struggle, the MLS is going to need something really big.

 

[Andy_Bu]

The NHL is to blame for many of their own problems, IMO.

First they chose to run away from hockey hotbeds to take the easy money in expansion in the south and other places.

Then they moronically shut down for an entire season, pissing off the vast majority of their fan base.

Then they some how found a way to choose one of the least viewed channels in the universe to show their games (again because of choosing the easy money).

Its no wonder the NHL is closer in scope to the niche leagues than it is to the big 3 leagues these days.

Andy

 

[Michael Harris]

Lance is an exception because of his story and winning seven Tours. That is going to garner attention. There are a lot of good American riders out there but they don't get anywhere as much press, with the possible exception of Floyd Landis, but then again he may get stripped of his title.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

I was reacting to those franchise values you listed -- $30M is really not much money for a professional sports franchise. The $150M figure you listed in a subsequent post for the LA franchise is more impressive.

Anyway, the comparison with the NHL was regarding similarities I see with each league's struggles to increase its fan base. The NHL has always struggled at a national level in the U.S., failing to secure and retain network television deals all the way back to the early 1970's (I can't remember back any further ). The sport is very popular in certain regions -- mostly northern areas -- but is almost completely off the radar screen in large sections of the country, even with the NHL's attempts to expand into those non-hockey markets.

There are certainly differences between the MLS and NHL, too. However, I do see professional soccer having similar regional interest, but struggling for recognition at a national level.

There's nothing wrong with being a smaller sport, though. I'm a big hockey fan (was at the Wings - Canadiens game last night, in fact), but I have no illusions that the sport is ever going to be able to compete with the NFL, NBA, and MLB at a national level.

 

[BrianB]

Crystal Palace is named after the Victorian exhibition centre where the team was founded & initially played (I believe).

Fulham & Chelsea are boroughs of London. Oddly enough, Chelsea's ground, Stamford Bridge, isn't technically inside Chelsea, it's in Fulham

 

[Andy_Bu]

Thanks for the info!

Hard to be an American soccer fan these days and not be a fan of Fulham!!


Andy

 

[KurtEP]

It would be interesting to see the P&L of some of the teams. If they're above break even, or perhaps even marginally below it, I don't see a real problem. Although $30MM for a team seems like a lot of money for most people, there are a lot of people who can look at that kind of thing as hobby money, even if it bleeds money. On the other hand, if they're profitable, the bar just isn't that high to get into the sport, unlike things like buying a football team.

Ultimately, even if the league never catches up to American football, baseball or basketball, it can still be a winner if the teams are profitable enough to keep themselves alive and the fan base keeps growing. Inevitably, the fan base will grow, too, if only from immigration from soccer hungry parts of the world. Something else to keep in mind is that it's better to be small and financially healthy than big and struggling, like hockey or some baseball teams.

As to the popularity growth, I do see significant strides in the past 20 years. When I was in high school, I only knew one person who cared at all about soccer. Over the last several years, though, I've know quite a few 20 something year olds who are really getting into it. One of my younger colleagues (when I worked) actually took the week off to watch the last world cup. Several of my schoolmates even traveled to see the games. They are also enthusiastic followers of US Soccer. This would have been unheard of years ago. It's not happening overnight, but not that long ago basketball was having very hard times, and hockey seems to always be on the brink of disaster, so who knows.

 

[Andy_Bu]

I can answer this question for you and will break them up into categories

1) The following teams are at break even or profitable
LA
Chivas
Columbus
Chicago
Dallas

2)The following team loses a very small amount of money (under $100k) per season
NE

3)The following teams lose money per year (between $500k and $1M)
DC
NY
RSL
Houston

4)The following teams will turn a profit this coming season(both opening brand new stadiums)
Colorado
Toronto

5)The following team is completely in the lurch due to severe stadium issues(the remodling of Arrowhead this summer has displaced the Wizards)
KC

Notes:

a) The key thing to take out of these groupings is that all teams that are in their own stadiums are making money, which includes the debt service on the new stadiums.

b) DC and NY have been bleeding the most money for years as their stadium situations in RFK and Giants stadium are horrendous financial deals, which is why their purchase price was only $33M and $30M respectively. The real cost to the new owners will be the building of the new stadiums. While Red Bull spent only $30M on the team, they are immediately pumping in close to $100M on the new stadium. NY has already broken ground on their new stadium, and the group that just purchased DC will also be building a new stadium in the Poplar Point area of DC.

c) NE is really the only team that can survive in a non soccer specific stadium and thats simply because Kraft owns Gillette. It absolutely sucks as a soccer facility but since Kraft owns it, many think that the Revs will be the last team in MLS to have their own stadium (even if the Krafts are already going through the motions now of figuring out where they might want to build the new stadium).


Hope this helps answer some of your questions.

Andy

 

[KurtEP]

Interesting about the non soccer stadiums. I'd think that it would be to a football stadium's benefit to let a soccer team in at a relatively minimal cost. I drive by a football stadium every day that sits empty for all but about 10 days per year. You would assume that anything that had any kind of contribution margin would be a benefit for them. Of course, the variable costs could be far more than I'm imagining.

 

[Andy_Bu]

You would think that, but the deals at RFK and Giants Stadium were bad ones from MLS from the get go (simply because MLS did not have a lot of choices in those areas and the stadiums took advantage of their lack of choice by driving good deals for the stadiums).

At both stadiums, MLS teams keep 100% of the ticket revenue but get almost no share of parking, concessions and in stadium merchandise, and then have to pay an enormous per game rent as well.

This is why so many teams have decided to invest in their own stadiums. Owning your own stadium is akin to printing money it seems. Teams went from losing a ton of money to making a ton of money almost over night.

When you own the stadium, you get the following enormous financial benefits

1) Schedule Control: You chose when to play the games to maximize attendance

2) Revenue Control: You keep all parking and concession money from each game

3) Non MLS revenue: You can host international games, concerts etc to bring in extra money when there are no games to be played.

4) Naming rights: Home Depot gave AEG $40M to put their name on the complex for the next decade plus some.

5) In stadium sponsorships: You control each and every sign and poster and get paid for it.

6) Luxury Box revenue: When you rent a stadium, you do not get a piece of that pie, when you own the stadium, you keep all of the enormous financial benefits of those boxes.


I have studied MLS finances in depth over the past 11 years. I am convinced that if Lamar Hunt did not build the first SSS (soccer specific stadium) and then shortly followed by the HDC in LA, the league would have gone under by now.

The stadiums and their benefits are what seperates MLS from the other niche league like Major League Lacross, WNBA and AFL to name three.

Andy

 

[Bruce Hedtke]

I'm betting the sports agents are failing to realize this fact big time. It may be nickels and dimes on paper, but the sticker shock value to future contracts is going to go up. When you start throwing numbers like $250 Million and/or $50M a season (accurate or not), that is when the head hunting agents come out of the woodwork.
Bruce

 

[Andy_Bu]

The breakdown of the contract was delineated in numerous national articles the day after the announcement. The only people who believe that its $250M in salary alone are the people who only read headlines.

If the sports agents were silly enough to do that little duedilligence, then they will learn the moment negotitations start with their perspective player.

Andy

 

[Yee-Ming]

Well, I did make it a point not to cite anything which was simply a foreign (to us) language name (Neuchatel Xamax, anyone?), so the ones I cited were either English clubs, or clubs where the name obviously translates into an English word which is still curious as a club name (e.g. National and International).

Interesting to read that building a soccer stadium in the US costs about US$100M. Arsenal recently opened their new stadium, and it cost 390 million pounds, well over half a billion dollars I think. And the new Wembley will cost close to 800 million pounds... although those costs are partly due to building within (relatively) central London, where land costs are quite high, as opposed to the usual practice of building a sports stadium on the outskirts of a city, where land costs are lower (e.g. I've always been rather amused by the fact that the New York Giants don't play in New York City, or heck even in New York state, but are actually in New Jersey).

Of course, that's top-class stadia located in the most expensive part of England, many other clubs, especially lower division ones, have built new, smaller, stadia for a fraction of the cost.

As an aside, Arsenal were "forced" to move as their old ground could only hold 38,500, whilst the new one holds 60,000. (The current largest football stadium in England, Manchester United's Old Trafford, now holds 76,500.) Apparently the matchday revenue from Arsenal's new premium tier, the "Club Level" (including presumably the ultra exclusive Diamond class as well) alone is equal to the entire matchday revenue they used to earn at the old stadium.

 

[Andy_Bu]

You are not comparing like items.

The soccer stadiums being built in the US range in size from 18,000 to 27,000 in capacity. If you are looking to compare dollar figures, you should compare the new Wembley to a new NFL stadium, since they would be more similar in size and therefor cost.

Andy

 

[Scott_Sch]

I am a long time player, all through my youth and now in adulthood in either adult indoor leagues during the colder months and outdoor leagues when its warmer. My biggest sports love is the NFL but I've been looking to focus on something else during the offseason. I haven't really followed MLS or any other soccer league before probably just due to the fact that it was slightly more difficult to catch the games on TV, but The MLS is getting my attention this year. Not even so much for the Beckham signing. Take this for instance. I live in Richmond, VA so DC United would be my closest team. I looked at what they get for basic season tickets the other day....$100 a ticket. I kid you not, I have never been to an MLS game before but I almost bought two on the spot even though it would mean at least a four hour commute round trip for the games. As a point of comparison, I have spent at least $120 a ticket for football games in the past. Between ticket prices and the ESPN games coming up this year, I'm hoping to get into and become a fan. Thanks for all the insight into the league Andy. I looking forward to following United this year and can't wait to attend a couple of games. Once the new stadium opens up it will be even better.

 

[Andy_Bu]

No problem Scott and I hope you enjoy the games. The atmosphere at DC United home games is amongst the best in the league.

If you have any questions about the league or DC specifically, please post them and I will be happy to answer what ever you list.

The following is probably the best DC United specific forum in case you want to peruse some of the topics
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/forum...aysprune=&f=13


Andy