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A Few Words About A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Robert Harris, May 28, 2008.

  1. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    The original post, which I had deleted at the request of Fox marketing has been located, with a huge thank you to Felix Martinez! I have shortened slightly, without changing the character of the piece. I will warn those who may not know my occasionally odd sense of humor, that this was written with: A. Steam being emitted from my ears, quite like an animated character; B. With about as much dry humour as might be mustered under the circumstances. C. As should be telegraphed by the final line.



     
  2. Rachael B

    Rachael B Well-Known Member

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    I choose this film to be my BD of the week, next week. Hot dam I like George C. Scott as a general. His Patton is almost as good as his General Turgeson bit...and there's good ole Karl Malden. He's a fine General too.

    Robert are you implying that some DNR has been applied. I must admit I didn't understand all the term you used....like the "Red" and "Dalsa". You lost me there.

    Well, it sounds like the film was reincarnated as good data.
     
  3. DavidJ

    DavidJ Premium
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    I'm not sure how to respond to these comments. In some ways it is good news, but at the same time I'm disappointed that the film has been "scrubbed."
    Although it is a different situation this is somewhat analogous to my recent theater going experiences. In Moore, Oklahoma there is a beautiful new theater with a brilliant sound system. To my ear, it is the best I've heard in the state and the best I've heard in years. It also has a wonderful digital projection system. It will be awesome for Wall-E later in the summer, but for movies originated on film I still prefer even mediocre film projection. Not that digital is bad. That is what we use in our home systems after all and it is quite nice, but it is not the same as projected film and that is one of the reasons I'll still go out to see films. I'm just perplexed as to why I have to choose between great sound and a more film like image.
    And now I'm perplexed by Patton. Why can't we have the benefits of modern HD discs without sacrificing the look and feel of film? So I'm a bit disappointed. I'll still enjoy what will be the best presentation of this film that I've had the opportunity to see, but there'll be that nagging sensation that it could have been better or to me more authentic.
     
  4. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Well-Known Member

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    Red and Dalsa are two HD cameras that are starting to be used by the film industry. Red being, I believe the first production ready 4k camera.
    doug
     
  5. DavidJ

    DavidJ Premium
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    Rachael, both Dalsa and Red are wonderful digital cinema cameras. The Red One has a 4K imaging sensor. The Epic that Mr. Harris referenced is an upcoming model that will have a 5K sensor.
    RED / Index
     
  6. Rachael B

    Rachael B Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for clearing me up 'bout the digital cameras guys!
     
  7. MatthewA

    MatthewA Well-Known Member

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    Is it at all possible that with the way the film was photographed the grain was minimal to begin with? Maybe I'm a little naive on this, but in most of the 65mm-originating films I've seen on film, I noticed a very clear image with very little grain (at least to my eyes a couple of years ago; I now wear glasses). Patton wasn't one of them, but the recent reprints I saw of other Fox films from around the same period (The Sound of Music, Doctor Doolittle, Hello Dolly) seemed almost like looking out a window. Though they are different films shot and stored under different conditions.
    How is the detail compared to other Blu-Rays of 65mm films you've seen, like 2001?
     
  8. EnricoE

    EnricoE Well-Known Member

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    i wonder how a grain heavy film such as saving private ryan will look on blu-ray. i hope they wont abply any dnr on that one.
    as for patton, i wont get it any time soon on br as i'm quite happy with the dvd. besides, you can't get every new release. then there is the note that a studio once again got their "make everything clean and slick" method out of the box doesn't convince me in getting it. they should finally stop doing that!!!
     
  9. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Well-Known Member

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    The grain should be finer in appearance that a 35mm film, but it should still be there. Also if enough DNR is used the image will start to lose high frequency detail along with grain. The whole thing starts to take on a plastic (best way I can describe it) like look.
    Doug
     
  10. Kris Z.

    Kris Z. Well-Known Member

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    Thanks yet again. This is what I was afraid of after looking at the screenshots in the blu-ray.com review.

    Sad really. We finally have a a home video format that can do the movies justice and retain much of the cinematic experience even on larger screens, and they throw it all out the window.

    If people want the movies to 'pop' (what does this mean anyway?) they should go to the IMAX 3D viewings.
     
  11. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    As I presume that Patton was shot on Eastman 5254, it would have precisely the same grain structure as every other film shot on 5254.
    Because it was shot on 65mm, the APPARENT grain seems finer because, when projected in 70mm, the image is being magnified only 40% that of 35mm.
    And yes, a "plastic" look is a very good word. High frequency information in faces, fabrics, walls, etc. is gone.
    There are ways around this.
    Grain structure can be reduced without affecting the rest of the image, but at present I'm aware of only one facility with this capability -- Lowry -- which can also modify the grain structure without removing it totally, and without turning cinema to plastic.
    RAH
     
  12. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Well-Known Member

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    Yes if I didn't say it clearly I was trying to indicate that the grain would APPEAR to be finer because of the lower magnification. I don't know how apparent that would be on a reduction to 35mm, though I imagine that it would look less grainy than a standard 35mm to 35mm release print.
    I've only seen the standard resolution versions, but Lowry seem to have done a very good job in this regard with the early Bond films. Dr. No in particular, I thought, looks fantastic.
    Of course it helps when you have a DP of the caliber of Ted Moore providing a really solid, well exposed negative to start with.
    Doug
     
  13. Michel_Hafner

    Michel_Hafner Well-Known Member

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    Seufz...

    (Also, data as a medium can look like anything (film, video...). Data is neutral. Scanners, projectors, algorithms... they are not so neutral (depends). And data has limits defined by the technical specs of the data. If they don't match the source data distorts the source. So data can not be neutral as well. Oh, the complexity... )
     
  14. Charles_Y

    Charles_Y Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry but I think these complaints specious. Totally subjective and probably no way to prove. Could comparison screenshots be provided? I've heard this argument before and can't see for my own eyes what they mean.

    I think it more like the complaints of analog/vinyl vs. digital/cd. I think the former a dinosaur and good riddance. something of a backhanded compliment in my view.
     
  15. Brandon Conway

    Brandon Conway captveg

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  16. Vincent_P

    Vincent_P Well-Known Member

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    Robert Harris's complaints "specious"? You're talking about the man who saved films like LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, SPARTACUS, VERTIGO, REAR WINDOW, THE GODFATHER and others from extinction. If anybody should know what "film" is supposed to look like, it's him.
    You should do a little research before you throw around comments like this.
    Vincent
     
  17. RobertR

    RobertR Well-Known Member

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  18. Dave H

    Dave H Well-Known Member

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    A real shame in what these studios are doing.
     
  19. Mike Williams

    Mike Williams Well-Known Member

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    Well, I will have to pick this up regardless, because this is my second favorite movie of all time, right behind "The Godfather" and just in front of "Lawrence of Arabia." I actually LIKE the screenshots I've seen on blu-ray.com, and, of course, nearly all the reviews have been outstanding with the only complaints rightly coming from Mr. Harris and from dvdreview.com in regards to the "scrubbed away grain." I'm just excited to hear how sharp and defined the image is, considering how soft the 2-disc Cinema Classics DVD is.
     
  20. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    I'm also looking for others to chime in here, as the image via my system looks beautiful, sharp and clean, but devoid of high frequency anything.
    Frames captures for this type question are unfortunately of very little value.
     

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