A Few Words About A few words about...™ Hawaii -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[JohnMor]

It is a shame it couldn't have been given the It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World extended blu-ray edition treatment. Although, I know that is not a Twilight Time financial consideration (and certainly not anything MGM would ever do on their own). I just think that what many of us dream for with this film. Sigh.

But I'm quite happy to have both versions on this blu. Especially with the isolated score.

 

[John Maher_289910]

John, I am a bit puzzled as Hawaii is shot in Scope - what happened to the rest of the picture for the general release version? I was under the impression that you would try to preserve the same height for both the SD and HD parts so that the SD parts would be windowboxed.

Not sure I completely understand what you are asking. The entire frame is there. If you zoom a windowboxed image, nothing is cut off.

 

[bruceames]

Yeah sure would be nice, but like you say, not something one would expect (or hope) that Twilight Time would do. I think that if it were done at some point then I don't see why anybody wouldn't prefer to see the roadshow with all but 28 minutes in HD. It's really rather frustrating that these are separate HD and roadshow, but it is what it is. At least we got the roadshow version.

 

[haineshisway]

You do understand that it's not really twenty-eight minutes. It's about ten minutes of footage and the rest is the music - intermission, entr'acte, exit.

 

[bruceames]

Good point Bruce. If it's really only about 10 minutes then that's not that bad. I skipped the other parts anyway. I think I'll go review what parts were actually cropped, just out of curiosity.

 

[Joe Caps]

John Mor - is there any music missing from the isolated score track?

 

[bruceames]

According to the HAWAII (1966) Roadshow vs. General Release Version thread, there is a lot more than 10 minutes of deleted scenes. More like 18-19 minutes.

 

[Paul Rossen]

According to the HAWAII (1966) Roadshow vs. General Release Version thread, there is a lot more than 10 minutes of deleted scenes. More like 18-19 minutes.

Correct.

 

[haineshisway]

I was going on what Nick told me - but having just looked at the packaging, I see 189 for the roadshow and 161 for the general release. Presuming those timings are correct, then we can lose ten minutes for the music, which means there is indeed about twenty minutes missing.

EDIT: Having now looked at that missing shots list, I think it's more like eighteen to nineteen minutes as he's very loose in his timings. Many of the cuts are under a minute, some considerably so.

 

[ROclockCK]

This whole argument is testament to the damage that can be done by those shortsighted studio execs who just throw away footage cut from the films. Not to mention the ones who let completed films just rot away (can you say The Alamo?). The original footage, shot at great expense, is gone forever.

Historical context is important though Rick. I mean, we're talking about mid 60s pop movies, which, in those days, had one predominant trajectory...Reserved Seat Roadshow (for the anointed few)...Wide Theatrical Release (for everything else)...the ABC/CBS/NBC [fill-in-the-blank] Night at the Movies 5 years later...then Local Syndication...then back into Vault, more often than not for good. No Cable. No Home Video. No Streaming. No ancillary use unless some enterprising Producer pitched the concept as a TV Series. Heck, even Sequels and Remakes were relatively uncommon during the 60s.

So although I agree that studios *should* have saved more from this era, and preserved better what they did save, with a so-so to poor B.O. performer like Hawaii, which had played through and was played out by the early 70s, what would typically be the point? Few envisioned then that all those original, hastily trimmed Roadshow elements would ever be required or desired again.

I don't like hearing that these snippets of film history are missing or gone for good, but I do understand why Studio Chiefs in the 60s allowed that to happen. I have much less respect for some of these come-lately Studio Chiefs who do know what they have in their Vaults, and choose to do nothing about preserving it.

*...except for Disney, which was always well-protected.

 

[Neil S. Bulk]

So although I agree that studios *should* have saved more from this era, and preserved better what they did save better, with a so-so to poor B.O. performer like Hawaii...

Hawaii was the second highest grossing movie of 1966 and not far at all from first place.

Neil

 

[davidmatychuk]

Hawaii was the second highest grossing movie of 1966 and not far at all from first place.

Neil

This is true. They even got some of that money from my Mom and me (and we loved "Hawaii"). But Steve makes a great point about studio chiefs then and now. Maybe sometime soon, the moviemakers who do care about the movies will have made enough movies themselves and will find a way to take charge of the studios. Harnessing the vast wealth surrounding the movie business could turn things around in a hurry for film preservation.

 

[Jim*Tod]

It is interesting to look at the hits of 1965 where the three top hits grossed $163,214,286, 111,721,910, and $63,595,658. But in '66 the two top grossing films were less than 35 million each. Granted SOUND OF MUSIC, DOCTOR ZHIVAGO, and THUNDERBALL were all making money well into 1966 and may have well pulled audiences away from the films released that year. Was this a particularly bad year for Hollywood? Certainly many of the roadshows in '66 and '67 did not do very well and clearly tastes were changing with THE GRADUATE over 100 million in '67.

 

[Rick Thompson]

Historical context is important though Rick. I mean, we're talking about mid 60s pop movies, which, in those days, had one predominant trajectory...Reserved Seat Roadshow (for the anointed few)...Wide Theatrical Release (for everything else)...the ABC/CBS/NBC [fill-in-the-blank] Night at the Movies 5 years later...then Local Syndication...then back into Vault, more often than not for good. No Cable. No Home Video. No Streaming. No ancillary use unless some enterprising Producer pitched the concept as a TV Series. Heck, even Sequels and Remakes were relatively uncommon during the 60s.

So although I agree that studios *should* have saved more from this era, and preserved better what they did save better, with a so-so to poor B.O. performer like Hawaii, which had played through and was played out by the early 70s, what would typically be the point? Few envisioned then that all those original, hastily trimmed Roadshow elements would ever be required or desired again.

I don't like hearing that these snippets of film history are missing or gone for good, but I do understand why Studios Chiefs in the 60s allowed that to happen. I have much less respect for some of these come-lately Studio Chiefs who do know what they have in their Vaults, and choose to do nothing about preserving it.

*...except for Disney, which was always well-protected.

I'm not buying that, because that era was also when studios sold their back lots and tons of props -- in short, they were dumping history for a quick buck. Doing better on that score were the record companies (granted, tape reels don't take up as much space as film, but there are lots more reels of tape), who are still reissuing catalog music with additional songs, songs with cut segments restored because CDs have more space than LPs did. Even comedy albums come out with additional "bonus content." Just because current technology doesn't bring more opportunity for income doesn't guarantee future technology won't. Even in the 60s and 70s, they blew the "intellectual property" horn; well, it's not convincing when you do that act at the front door and then throw said intellectual property into the dumpster out back.

 

[Cineman]

It is interesting to look at the hits of 1965 where the three top hits grossed $163,214,286, 111,721,910, and $63,595,658. But in '66 the two top grossing films were less than 35 million each. Granted SOUND OF MUSIC, DOCTOR ZHIVAGO, and THUNDERBALL were all making money well into 1966 and may have well pulled audiences away from the films released that year. Was this a particularly bad year for Hollywood? Certainly many of the roadshows in '66 and '67 did not do very well and clearly tastes were changing with THE GRADUATE over 100 million in '67.

Yes, it is interesting that '66 didn't produce any box-office hits with takes well over the $30-35 Million range (at least, in that calendar year), yet '65 had three mega-blockbusters that made much more than that, box-office hit phenomenons actually, and '67 produced eight movies that took in significantly more than $30-35 Million.

So I clicked on the year 1966 In Television and noticed there were several prime time color television debuts in the USA that year. Also, three television series debuted in '66 that got tons of media coverage, pop culture attention and viewership interest; Batman, The Monkees, and Mission: Impossible (Star Trek, too, but I don't know if many people were staying home to watch that series to talk about it the next day the year it debuted, but I could be wrong about that).

Unless I am missing something obvious, I can't exactly say the same for prime time color television events and notable pop culture television series' debuts for '65 and '67. Maybe television made more gains in its war against the movies that particular year of 1966 than the year before or after..?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_in_television

 

[ROclockCK]

Hawaii was the second highest grossing movie of 1966 and not far at all from first place.

Neil

According to my best available sources, Hawaii cost an estimated $15 million and grossed $35 million, with a mere $15 million in domestic rentals. Even today, that B.O. ratio would be considered at best "underperforming", or just as likely a tin-plated "flop". So I thought I was being kind by tagging Hawaii's boxoffice performance as "so-so to poor". No reflection on the quality of the movie of course; I have a soft spot for it too...credit the appeal of the cast, a smart script, and Bernstein's soaring score.

But as David notes, my larger point stands. In those days there were fewer avenues to recoup and profit after a "hoo-hah" to "whoa-d'ere" theatrical run. So what was the incentive for the Studio to be a packrat with all their roadshow trims? Toward what future purpose??

I guess I'm just grateful for what does survive from the roadshow era.

 

[OliverK]

Depending on the conditions of the elements there would also be the option to do a quick and dirty 4k scan of a faded 70mm roadshow print. The one used to create the SD material should still exist but maybe MGM also practiced annihilation by rejuvenation with it like they did for the roadshow print of The Alamo?

In any case, the fading can be overcome and result in colors that look more natural than for many of todays blockbusters as can be seen here for a scan from a faded 70mm print of Savage Pampas:
http://in70mm.com/news/2015/pampas/images/pampas.jpg

With this being an MGM property they may as well decide to not do anything with what roadshow footage they have nor let anybody else do something with it but it would be possible to arrive at so much better quality than what is currently available for the roadshow version.

 

[OliverK]

Not sure I completely understand what you are asking. The entire frame is there. If you zoom a windowboxed image, nothing is cut off.

OK, so you just zoomed in on the windowboxed part then, that makes sense.

 

[Keith Cobby]

Depending on the conditions of the elements there would also be the option to do a quick and dirty 4k scan of a faded 70mm roadshow print. The one used to create the SD material should still exist but maybe MGM also practiced annihilation by rejuvenation with it like they did for the roadshow print of The Alamo?

In any case, the fading can be overcome and result in colors that look more natural than for many of todays blockbusters as can be seen here for a scan from a faded 70mm print of Savage Pampas:
http://in70mm.com/news/2015/pampas/images/pampas.jpg

With this being an MGM property they may as well decide to not do anything with what roadshow footage they have nor let anybody else do something with it but it would be possible to arrive at so much better quality than what is currently available for the roadshow version.

I suspect that it will sell slowly on blu-ray and that consequently nothing else will be done.

 

[OliverK]

I suspect that it will sell slowly on blu-ray and that consequently nothing else will be done.

This is what I expect. Unfortunately I am more interested in the roadshow version but cannot really see myself enduring a cropped LD version for 3+ hours,