Will DVD-Audio or SACD ever take off? (1 Viewer)

[Jonathan Dagmar]

Will DVD-Audio or SACD ever take off? I mean, will either ever replace standard CD's as the format of choice? At this point, My guess is no. Firstly very few people are chomping at the bit for a new audio format, since CD already sounds very decent, and with Dolby Pro Logic II music mode, you get that enveloping effect of multi-chanel audio. Also, CDs basically last forever, it is not like the move from LPs to 8track to cassettes to CD, where each previous format had a fairly rapid detioration. Also, so many (losers) are content with stolen MP3 files. These people don't seem to mind the missing cover art and booklets and so on.

So for those reasons I do not beleive that either DVD-A or SACD will ever be mainstream. I confess that I myself and pretty much indifferent, but I am curious about what others think.

 

[Jagan Seshadri]

DVD-Audio and SACD will never take off. The iPod/MP3 generation is driving the market.

-JNS

 

[Marc Colella]

DVD-Audio and SACD will NEVER replace CDs.

I agree with Jagan, MP3's has the best bet of taking over CDs.

Here's a nice little read on CNET's website regarding the possibility of a digital revolution in the music industry:

http://news.com.com/2009-1027-1009535.html?tag=sr_toc

 

[Mark C.]

No, neither will replace regular CDs. I consider myself an audio nut, however I was not won over by SACD or DVD-A. I couldn't tell much of a difference between two-channel SACD and redbook CD on my high-end system and the menu system for DVD-A is clunky at best. Both sound great in multi-channel, but getting the bass management right can drive you crazy. To me, it's not worth repurchasing my entire CD collection just to have the same collection in surround sound. If I want multi-channel, I'll use one of my pre/pro's DSPs.

 

[LanceJ]

No, IMO sacd or dvd-audio will not replace CDs. They will most probably remain specialty formats.....and there is nothing wrong with that. Just ask Porsche or Rolex.

If I want multi-channel, I'll use one of my pre/pro's DSPs.

Not to be a whiney nag, but no type of DSP will produce true discrete multi-channel music. It's just some software in a chip manipulating 1 & 0's according to some unknown engineer's preconceived notion of what he thinks sounds good. And it definitely will not be what the music's artist or mixing engineer desired.

For some evidence of this, go to this article and read the 7th and 8th paragraphs.

LJ

 

[RobBenton]

I think it will be a hard road but they have the possibility of replacing cd's slowly over time. They are getting some major support recently and more stuff is coming out in that format and even cars are coming equipped with dvd-a players now.. If they get the kinks ironed out they have a fighting chance.

 

[Wes]

You know I find I am the only one I know in my little circle that actually sits and listens to music at home. So multichannel means nothing to some that just listens to music as background sounds. Car audio surround is quite a bit slower to start up and catch on then home surround music so I cant see any multichannel format taking over. SACD would not offer that big of an improvement for the averaged consumer so I can't see it going too far unless all labels and equipment manufactures jumped on the Sony SACD band wagon which may not happen!
As stated earlier MP3 (which I have not toyed with yet) will most likely be marketed some how and could give CD a run in my opinion.

But I am placing my bets on Quad 8 track!:p)

Wes

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I think it will be a hard road but they have the possibility of replacing cd's slowly over time.

I agree. People here are assuming too many things stand in the way of hirez formats.

Lots of positive things like the release of the Beatles catalog could happen that would drive the market to hirez.

Also, record labels could change their business strategy and adopt a two-pronged approach to the market: MP3 and hirez.

CDs will likely be here for a while, but I see much evidence that hirez is starting to take hold. I base this on the number of players sold and the rapidly increasing number of SACD titles.

 

[Rich Malloy]

The market may fracture so much that there may never again be a single dominant media. I foresee a world where a large group of music listeners go for the easiest-to-access (download, etc.), most portable technology with increasingly good compression schemes though not "audiophile quality", another group that cares first and foremost for sonic quality in a digital medium (hi-res, multichannel SACD/DVD-A), and a third group of analog throwbacks who prefer music on high quality vinyl.

So long as the CD remains the easiest to rip and copy format playable in the widest variety of players (headphones, car stereos, home stereos, computers, etc.), it will probably remain the media of choice for group 1, and groups 2 and 3 will remain essentially niche "audiophile" markets.

The CD is capable of excellent music reproduction, as anyone who's heard Steve Hoffman's mastering work for DCC, many of the MFSL releases, etc., knows full-well. But the well-mastered CD has essentially gone the way of the dinosaur, at least for rock/pop recordings. The biggest problem for the CD format in terms of attracting listeners whose foremost concern is sound quality is not (IMO) the inherent limitations of the technology. Rather, it's the piss-poor mastering of CDs over the last decade that's made them unlistenable. Those of us into SACD and vinyl are glad to see that these mastering abominations are not (yet) being carried over into our beloved "audiophile" formats... but it may just be a matter of time. This would definitely be the downside of "mainstreaming".

And if you're not familiar with the practices that have ruined CD mastering (for pop/rock recordings anyway), here's an excellent primer, entitled "The Death of Dynamic Range: A Chronology of the Compact Disc Loudness Wars": http://rvcc2.raritanval.edu/ktek9053/cdpage/

 

[Rick_Brown]

I have a different take on this. I believe that CD's will eventually be phased out by the big manufacturers in favor of "DVD's" for music. The installed base of DVD players is reaching critical mass. Most people who aren't critical listeners don't even buy CD players for their Home Theater In A Box; they just play CD's in their DVD machines. Cars are now being outfitted with DVD players. Portable boom boxes will be next. Eventually, when critical mass is achieved, manufacturers will want to begin the switchover. Why? Copy-protection. That is the holy grail. A true CD doesn't allow for it.

Of course, we have to move to all-digital connections and away from needing analog connections for DVD-A hi-rez surround for this to happen. At first, it will likely be dual-layer disc's with a CD and DVD layer. Eventually, the inseruon of CD layers will just fade away. Whaddya think?

 

[Mark Hedges]

The trouble is as I understand it they have given up trying to have DVD-A and CD layers on the same side of the disc. So the only way to get both is to have a "flipper" disc, which is not really desireable for several reasons. Only SACD allows a hi-res and redbook layer on the same side of the disc.

Mark

 

[Rick_Brown]

The trouble is as I understand it they have given up trying to have DVD-A and CD layers on the same side of the disc.

So then, maybe SACD will win out and become the standard?

 

[Ken Stuart]

No, IMO sacd or dvd-audio will not replace CDs. They will most probably remain specialty formats.....

The number of specialty formats that have survived is.... zero. (LP doesn't count because not only was it the predominant format for awhile, it was the only full-length format for awhile.)

The problem with specialty formats is that they generally only have a limited selection. I stopped bothering with keeping track of audiophile pressings back in the 90's, because I foremost want to listen to music. When a new release of music comes out, if it is not in an audiophile specialty format, then that format is worthless to me.

In order for SACD or DVD-A to survive, the following must happen:

- All releases are hybrid.
- Like the Rolling Stones SACDs, all releases are the release. No separate releases, no separate sections at the store.
- All releases are at the normal CD price - or less.
- All DVD and CD players come with DVD-Audio and SACD.

That way, with the exception of people with older hardware, everyone automatically will be able to hear the SACD or DVD-A layers when they buy a new music album.

So, if it is not a separate, additional sale, then what is the advantage to the record companies? Very simple - fighting MP3! In order to compete with free MP3 downloads, the legitimate release has to have extra added value not in the MP3. When people hear the SACD and DVD-A layers, because they are already there, and their hardware already can play them, then they will be more amenable to purchasing the product (at least the end of the market who can actually tell a difference, which is why surround mixes must always be a part of the equation).

The need for this extra added value, in order to compete with MP3s, seems to be gain accepatance. The new Paul Van Dyk greatest hits CD release includes an additional live DVD, and the new Metallica album on CD, includes an additional live DVD of them playing every song...

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I stopped bothering with audiophile pressings, because I foremost want to listen to music.

That's funny - that's why I buy audiophile pressings so I can clearly hear the music of the band. On most modern recordings, the mixing and mastering is so bad as to distract from the whole enjoyment.

 

[LanceJ]

From what I've read, the dvd-audio members are testing the dvd-audio "flipper" disc for viability--IMO this is the reason for the huge slowdown in dvd-audio releases lately.

And not everyone is clamoring for CD compatibility anyway.

LJ

 

[John Kotches]

Lance,

There's certainly some truth with respect to the slowdown that can be attributed to the experimentation with hybrid media.

In addition, there has been a much stronger emphasis on the release of surround material for DVD-Audio vs. a large number of stereo only releases from existing stereo tapes with SACD.

It is comparatively easy to do a remastering vs an entirely new mix from multitrack tapes.

Regards,

 

[Marc Colella]

SACD is almost 5 years old, and it hasn't even come close to penetrating the market. DVD-A is a little younger, but isn't doing much either.

How long do you think these companies are going to dump money into these formats before giving up on trying to obtain mass-market acceptance?

The best case scenario for hi-rez is a niche market. Sony and Warner are starting to realize this with the initial success of Apple's iTune, and the labels are scrambling to get their products online now.

As soon as Microsoft gets 100% onboard with MP3, all chances of hi-rez taking over as the next audio format will be eliminated.

 

[LanceJ]

How long do you think these companies are going to dump money into these formats before giving up on trying to obtain mass-market acceptance?

Jeez I wish they would do some dumping of money into these formats--how about some real ADVERTISING for them???

LJ

 

[John Kotches]

Marc,

At this point in time, you have to give the nod to DVD-A on PC. There exists today a solution for playing full res DVD-Audio on the PC, with more coming in the near future if my source is correct.

To this point, Sony has steadfastly refused to get on board with SACD on the PC. Likewise the portable market, where to this point no portable solutions exist for SACD, but do for DVD-A.

Add to that the lack of SACD in the car market, while DVD-A capability is being offered as an option, and you see that there is a definite trend towards DVD-A getting a broader penetration in the hardware arena than SACD, and at very highly competitive pricing ($130 gets you into a very inexpensive DVD-A solution these days).

I'm sure Lee will be on to offer a countering opinion from mine.

Regards,

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Hmmm... Has anyone factored in how foreign markets will impact these formats?

I'm not sure, but my Chinese coworker thinks SACD is hitting it big over in China while DVD-A is non-existent over there. I'd think that's also the case in Japan. What about Europe?

Anyway, if SACD becomes the dominant format in a country w/ >1 billion people who never really caught on that much w/ Western music until recent years (which is probably why redbook CD posed no inertial challenge over there) in addition to wins in a few other key countries, why wouldn't it eventually win out in the format war to replace CD over here as well? It may take a long time, but it's definitely possible.

I do agree w/ the MP3 thing and market fragmentation for the forseeable future though. I can definitely see it happening in China, if nowhere else, where piracy has been a huge problem and probably will continue to be unless a hi-rez, surround format like SACD can win people over. People over there are also not that big on DVD-V for some reason, which is probably why DVD-A has been non-existent. In this case, it's probably due to the huge popularity of VCD being a difficult obstacle. Strangely, this obstacle w/ the video formats hasn't translated equally to the audio formats.

Anyway, we shall see. For now, I'm hopping aboard w/ both DVD-A and SACD and don't need surround music to drive me to buy -- not just yet anyway. And my coworker will probably also dive in to smaller extent as soon as the