Why do cops shoot to kill? (1 Viewer)

[DaveF]

Could cops instead be trained and equipped to subdue difficult people with non-lethal force?Could cops be trained to de-escalate difficult situations so such force is not required at all?My impression is recent cop shootings are in part because cops escalate a bad situation, rather than being able to cool things down.

 

[Jim517]

1) Yes, and they are2) Yes, and they are3) What specific incidents are you referring to, and why do you have that impression?

 

[Tino]

Uh oh. Heading down that road.

 

[Walter Kittel]

For consideration...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/20/us/albuquerque-police-investigation/


It is kind of difficult to get a clear view of the situation when it isn't being officially tracked in a comprehensive manner on a national scale.

http://gawker.com/what-ive-learned-from-two-years-collecting-data-on-poli-1625472836

- Walter.

 

[DaveF]

1) Yes, and they are2) Yes, and they are3) What specific incidents are you referring to, and why do you have that impression?

Presumably the same ones Ron was thinking of in his initial question

Again, another story about someone lunging at a cop with a weaponand the cop shooting the person dead. These stories have plagued the news for the past several months. Toavoid turning this thread into something I don't want it to be, I am notgoing to cite specific examples or names of victims.

Because, just from recent news, it's not apparent to the ignorant layman (me) that cops even carry non-lethal weapons.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Because, just from recent news, it's not apparent to the ignorant layman (me) that cops even carry non-lethal weapons.

Watch any episode of Cops (practically) and you'll see some moron who thinks they are going to outrun or hide from the cops end up on the wrong end of a tazer.

I would think regular viewers of that program would believe cops rarely fire their sidearm and almost always look for some other means to apprehend a suspect. Which it seems would be an accurate impression based upon the statistics.

 

[Jim517]

Presumably the same ones Ron was thinking of in his initial questionBecause, just from recent news, it's not apparent to the ignorant layman (me) that cops even carry non-lethal weapons.

Some departments do and some don't. When I was still working, we carried stun guns. But they are worthless unless you are within reach of the suspect.

 

[atfree]

Had a situation a year or so in my city.Guy left his SUV warming up in his driveway (which is illegal in this city).A guy stole his vehicle, driving away, probably two blocks away and the owner, very pissed off, pulls off a miracle shot, hits the guy in the head and kills him. Owner was never in any danger, no confrontation, the vehicle was already gone, just a grouch having a temper tantrum. The amazing thing, even though he was basically a murderer, he was declared innocent and never charged.Scary that people like him are still our there, free to own guns.

Problem #1: that's its illegal for a citizen of the U.S. (or any country) to warm up their car.Problem #2: guy that had his car stolen is described as a "grouch". I'd be " grouchy" too.Problem #3: that we're expected to feel pity for a thief that stole a car.Again, if you act like an idiot don't be surprised to be treated as one. Or, more to the point, if you act like a criminal, be prepared for the consequences.

 

[Stan]

Alex, agree with all your points. As for #1, thought it was just a city thing, but statewide both in Washington & Oregon.
--------
“You’ve probably seen ‘puffers’ – people who start their cars and then go back inside while the heater warms up, and that’s against the law in many areas. Even if you leave your car unattended for just a few minutes, that’s plenty of time for a thief to break in and drive away,” said Jon Osterberg, PEMCO Insurance spokesperson. In fact, Washington state law requires drivers to stop their car’s engine, lock the ignition, remove the keys, and set the brake before leaving a vehicle unattended. Oregon state law uses similar language and holds drivers to the same requirements.
#2 - I'd be grouchy to, but it's a car, a material thing, you've got insurance. Shooting and killing somebody seems way to excessive.--------

Back on topic before I get in trouble

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

In these cases of police shootings, it is never a well-dressed businessman/woman, regardless of race/creed/color, that is the victim. It's usually in "sketchy", crime-ridden areas that most of us wouldn't tread into. That environment breeds tension. My grandfather was a police officer for 40 years, and both my brothers are retired police officers (the gene must have skipped me). Unfortunately, in some areas past history predicts current/future events and I'm sure the majority of law officers know which areas require extra vigilence which entails heightened tensions. Much like I will vacation in the Bahamas but not in Afghanistan.

I'm not disagreeing with the point you're making, but the implications make me uncomfortable.Most of the people in those "sketchy", crime-ridden areas aren't there because they want to be, they're there because they don't have any place better to go. And the violent criminals as a percentage of the population are still likely to be quite low.Certainly cops are going to be more on edge in areas where they've encountered problems in the past -- that's just human nature -- but it's dangerous to say that that in and of itself justifies an itchier trigger finger. The value of human life shouldn't fluctuate from ZIP code to ZIP code.

 

[schan1269]

Alex, agree with all your points. As for #1, thought it was just a city thing, but statewide both in Washington & Oregon.--------“You’ve probably seen ‘puffers’ – people who start their cars and then go back inside while the heater warms up, and that’s against the law in many areas. Even if you leave your car unattended for just a few minutes, that’s plenty of time for a thief to break in and drive away,” said Jon Osterberg, PEMCO Insurance spokesperson. In fact, Washington state law requires drivers to stop their car’s engine, lock the ignition, remove the keys, and set the brake before leaving a vehicle unattended. Oregon state law uses similar language and holds drivers to the same requirements.#2 - I'd be grouchy to, but it's a car, a material thing, you've got insurance. Shooting and killing somebody seems way to excessive.--------Back on topic before I get in trouble

So.."remote start" is all those things...and the car still running.So...is remote start illegal?(By the way, Chicago news had a story on an officer who used non-lethal force to apprehend a suspect. Yes...that made news...The talking head reading "the story" cracked a joke afterward..."Good to know at least one Chicago cop didn't kill anybody today...")

 

[Jim517]

So.."remote start" is all those things...and the car still running.So...is remote start illegal?(By the way, Chicago news had a story on an officer who used non-lethal force to apprehend a suspect. Yes...that made news...

Remote start doesn't matter. What's illegal is letting a car run unattended. Letting the car run while it is locked may be legal, but it depends on where you live.Was the suspect armed with a gun or knife?

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

IIUC many of the "no warming up" laws are really SMOG laws. Modern cars really don't "warm up" much just idling since the fuel injection systems are now metered so accurately. Very little gas is need for idling, and hence not much heat is generated at idle. With modern cars it's generally better to wait maybe 15 seconds for the oil pressure to stabilize then just drive off at moderate throttle values.

 

[schan1269]

IIUC many of the "no warming up" laws are really SMOG laws. Modern cars really don't "warm up" much just idling since the fuel injection systems are now metered so accurately. Very little gas is need for idling, and hence not much heat is generated at idle. With modern cars it's generally better to wait maybe 15 seconds for the oil pressure to stabilize then just drive off at moderate throttle values.

Know that.Any other forum members own a 2014-15 Subaru Forester?I read all the "hate emails" to Subaru about the lack of heat. I figured, just use cardboard in front of the radiator (like I do the diesel truck and Miata...as it has an extra large 3 core radiator meant for 120mph hot laps in 115° weather).Nope. Below 30, not kidding. Just sitting long enough at a red light...the auto climate goes nuts dealing with no heat in the core...

 

[ChristopherG]

Getting back to OP question how can anyone of us who aren't in a cops shoes facing everything from the worst of what humanity has to offer to everything else in between possibly have a real perspective on this question?Hats off to those who think they have the answer.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Getting back to OP question how can anyone of us who aren't in a cops shoes facing everything from the worst of what humanity has to offer to everything else in between possibly have a real perspective on this question?Hats off to those who think they have the answer.

Because that's what people do. Unfortunately, if you haven't noticed people are very judgmental and even more so today due to the world of instant communication and information we live in.

 

[Jim517]

Cops and defense attorneys are not liked by most people until you need one !!

 

[Robert Crawford]

Cops and defense attorneys are not liked by most people until you need one !!

I'm not sure they're liked even then.

 

[ChristopherG]

Because that's what people do. Unfortunately, if you haven't noticed people are very judgmental and even more so today due to the world of instant communication and information we live in.

So true. Also due to the relative anonymity that the internet affords those being so judgmental.

 

[Carl Johnson]

I'm a police officer. In our training we are specifically forbidden from firing warning shots or shooting to wound. If the suspect's actions do not warrant killing them then something less than deadly force must be used.It's done that way for liability. Any time a bullet is fired the end result could be death. If a police officer shoots someone and cannot clearly communicate why deadly force was appropriate after the fact they will surely be fired, and could even face charges along the lines of criminal recklessness.