Warm, tube like sound from a/v Receiver/ Speaker combination for $1500, possible? (1 Viewer)

[Brett DiMichele]

I second what Chu said about finding a local place to buy
it... It's just much easier to deal with if you decide you
are not impressed with the tube harmonics

I mean, I can stand here all day and rave about what this
passive device has added to my music. But that does not
mean you will like it. Everyone's ears tell thier brains
what they want to hear.

If we all wanted the same exact thing life would be sort of
dull I guess

 

[Chu Gai]

you still plan on using it when you go the biamp route Brett?

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Chu,

I am not sure what I am going to do with it. I will most
likely put it in the box and keep it for some later use.

I am not sure yet what or how I am hooking up the new amps
when they get here. I may hook them up long enough to get
the tubes broken in and check to make sure everything works
and them set them aside till I get my 2 channel dedicated
Pre Amp and a good CD Player.

 

[Michael R Price]

I don't know if I'm comfortable with just inserting some piece of equipment with a tube stage into your system. It could only degrade the sound, right? A better idea would be to upgrade to a piece of equipment using tubes for a good reason (example: CD player with tubed I/V stage, or a preamp). But there's nothing wrong with playing around with a Behringer tube EQ, either. I'm just not sure that adding something will make your system better just because you now have tubes. (Well, has anyone's gotten worse? If so, I haven't heard of it.)

 

[craig_d_can]

Well, I think there are many questions to be asked. What is "tube sound"?is the first.....There are many good arguments for and against this....."tube" normally means smooth, ans silky......well IMO, music isn't always smooth and silky......some people don't want to hear smooth and silky, or "accurate".....they want to hear "tube sound".....which can be very satisfying.....I have heard plenty of very good tube setups and a ton of good SS setups....both have been rewarding, but I do find it funny that almost all tube gear has been with either Martin Logan or Magnepan....

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Mike,

The Behringer uses tubes the same way any tubed Pre or
Tubed CD player does. These all make passive use of tubes
to run a signal through. They are in no way connected to
the speakers or controlling power flow.

The Behringer does add tube sound the same way as a tubed
pre would. It's a constant-q paralell design EQ and the
EQ function is completely hard bypassable. The specs on the
equipment are up to par so I don't see how you would be
degrading sound, unless you consider adding even ordered
harmonics as a degredation (and some may...)

 

[IvanD]

Hi Brett,
Those Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-20 DT 20 watt Pure Class A Monoblocks are starting to sound interesting. I would like to know how they sound. Are you going to add to your existins system using the Pre Outs? I never considered it important to get pre out when I bought originally but now I do.

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Ivan,

I am not yet decided how I will use the ASL's I can use
them a couple of different ways but yes I think I am just
going to use my 787's Pre Outs and use a pair of splitters
so that I can keep my M-282 Power Amp connected and I can
just switch back and fourth till I get a dedicated pre.

Hurm.... I will need to switch the speaker wires around
from amp to amp...... Unless.....


What a pain in the butt

 

[Michael R Price]

In my experience the purpose of tubes has been in gain stages... I'm not sure what's meant by "controlling power flow." But I'm sure it works great.

And heck I'm all for second order distortion. Actually it's not the distortion that I like, just the other improved aspects of the sound that come with a good simple Class A amplifier. The extra distortion that tube amps produce is to me just an artifact of the design that I can definitely live with given the other advantages.

 

[RichardHOS]

Chu, Brett, et. al...

I noticed a comments that the Behringer component referred to is all analog, tube section can be bypassed, and contains parametric EQ capabilities. Are all of those correct?

If so, it would seem a good candidate alternative for the BFD to avoid the A/D D/A stages... Any thoughts on its parametric EQ abilities? Wondering if it would make a good sub-EQ; the price sure seems right!

 

[Chu Gai]

send an email to Behringer?

 

[RichardHOS]

Bah! That's no fun!

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Rich,

IMHO you are much better off with the BFD for equalization
of sub frequencies. The BFD is more flexible in managing
the curves.

The Tube Ultra-Q only has 4 bands to work with and only
one of those bands extends down to 20Hz.

 

[RichardHOS]

Yeah, just noticed that. Looks like the Pro-Curve thingamajiggy is really the top-shelf EQ, having separate parametric and graphic sections (that can be used simultaneously), as well as containing the BFD within it, and a dynamic sideband compressor thrown in for good measure.

Twice the price of the BFD though, and probably not worth it for what we would use them for. Man, the BFD really looks like a great bargain!

 

[Brett DiMichele]

I think the BFD is one of the best bargains out there and
I don't even own one!

Behringer has had some issues with quality from what others
have said and I did get a dead Tube Q the first time.. Could
have been damaged from shipping for all I know but the
second unit works like a charm and I am enjoying it! (Untill
my Pure Class A 20 Watt Monoblocks get here!!!)

 

[Chu Gai]

I'd meant to address one thing that Chuck had mentioned...the musical fidelity product. I believe that's the X-10D. it's supposed to 'bring out hidden detail' when
placed between a CD player and an amplifier. FWIW, it's a tubed buffer whichadds a little noise, hum and distortion, and just so happens to have a gain of 1dB! Think we're dealing with just a little bit of obfuscation by them?

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Ohh and hey Mike..

I know I confused you with what I said about tubes being
used for power..

What I meant was Tubes being used in Line Stage rather than
directly riding the impedance swing of the speaker...

A unit like the Tube Q is line stage only... When the tubes
are coupled to the speakers I would imagine the effect is
greater.. I am not the elctronics wiz here though

 

[Gianni]

Ivan,

Lots of good suggestions here. You may have already considered this but I noticed nobody has mentioned your room itself.

I have had some good luck in reducing brightness by making changes to the room. I don't think this will give you tube like sound but it can warm things up by taking some edge off. You should make sure you don't have an overly live room. Have you checked for flutter echo? This can be relatively inexpensive and will benefit sound quality with all components.

In my case not only did it reduce brightness but this also helped soundstage and imaging.

 

[Mal P]

In my opinion, I've always found that more of the "magic" of tube sound lies in the direct interaction between power tubes and a speaker, in preferably single-ended mode.

For example, I've played around with numerous tube pre-amps in front of high quality 2ch Solid State power-amps, and while the sound quality was a bit more 'tubey' than equivalent Solid State pre-amps, it was nothing dramatc - perhaps an indication of the quality of the Solid State pre-amp (it was a really, really good one).

It wasn't until I purchased a 300B based single-ended tube power-amp that I got the sound I was after... lovely lush mids, sweet treble and warm (yet still tight) bass. This has to do with the high output impedence single-ended tube designs have, and the way that effects frequency and phase response when trying to drive a loudspeaker which has its own impedence characteristics. I use a solid state pre-amp in front of it and the combination sounds great.

So basically, I'd say if you want tube sound, and a lot of it, try and get a dedicated 2ch single ended tube power-amp. There are some quite affordable models out there (especially using the 300B with 8 wonderful watts per channel). Don't worry about the power output - I drive 89dB sensitivity speakers with 8 watts and it reaches very loud levels without any stress.

Push-pull tube amps can sound sweet as well, but tend to sound a bit more like Solid State amps due to the way they work, i.e. push-pull designs cancel out pleasant even order harmonic distortion (to a degree) whereas single ended designs create an abundance of them.

The Behringer does look like a good unit however - the ability to over-drive the tubes in the unit (with the "warmth" knobs) in order to generate distortion can indeed work. Might be a cheaper option.

Cheers,
Mal

 

[Michael R Price]

Mal sort of said this, and I'll add my own spin: The magic lies in getting rid of whatever was getting in the way of it. In other words, you could probably benefit more from replacing a DAC or preamp with a tubed one if you have good quality solid state amplifiers.

I don't think tubes are the only way to get this sort of "magic." There are a lot of solid state electronics that use similarly simple circuits and eschew big power and low measured distortion in order to get the best sound quality... I use a little bit of that myself.

"I drive 89dB sensitivity speakers with 8 watts and it reaches very loud levels without any stress. "

What? I guess we have different definitions of "very loud" and "stress." Just have to put my 2 cents in because I personally think low power limits the effectiveness of the smaller tube amps with the usual low-efficiency speakers. (There are other solutions, though.) My speakers are 87db efficient and I might have been happy with the dynamic capability of a 100 watt amp... more is better. (How to get the musical magic too, with this sort of power? I'm working on it.)

Gianni makes a good point about room acoustics, which probably affect the sound just as much as any amplifier. If only I had the freedom to fix up my room...