Samsung Australia VP says true 4k Blu-ray to arrive in stores by Christmas 2014! (1 Viewer)

[Dave H]

I agree, however network infrastructure is constantly improving across the world as a natural byproduct of the growth in the number of Internet-based services being provided to consumers and businesses. Nobody said it's going to happen overnight, just as nobody expects 4K adoption to become widespread overnight. But it needs to happen, and not just for 4K video, but for a range of services that - like it or not - are moving "to the cloud".

4K is a premium product, so I assume the studios are aiming it at people who can afford to access fast Internet. If you don't have the bandwidth to stream or download 4K, then current DVD, Blu-ray and 720p or 1080p digital media should serve. This is again why I don't see any logic in 4K physical media in the long term. If 2K Blu-ray struggles to rise above being a niche, and studios are only grudgingly dishing out catalog titles on Blu, why on Earth would they bother with catalog releases on an even more niche product?

To help people conceptualize how 4K delivery might actually work, let's consider that:

Netflix is already moving to enable 4K streaming. The Netflix CEO says in this article that "As an overall system load, it will grow quite slowly and steadily, giving people lots of time to build the infrastructure."

YouTube has already moved to provide a (highly compressed) 2160p 4K option for its videos. This article has more details, including the fact that due to partnership deals (19 hardware partners including ARM, Intel, Broadcom, Marvell as well as Samsung, Sharp and Toshiba), TVs which support this high-compression VP9 codec will be released starting in 2015.

Sony has already released a 4K media player to which you directly download 4K movies. It can download movies fom the Video Unlimited 4K service, up to around 45 full length features can be stored on its 2TB internal drive, and you can add external storage to hold more movies.

The Playstation 4 can download 4K movies at 100GB a piece.

Amazon has just announced that it has entered into a 4K streaming deal with several partners - Samsung, Warners and Lionsgate.

I would be genuinely interested to hear from anyone how 4K Blu-ray could viably compete with these options, keeping in mind that studios are steadily abandoning 2K Blu-ray as it is, and leaving most catalog releases to boutique providers.

If everything you are saying is true, 4K Blu would have never even gotten off a white paper. It would have been shot down before it even got to where it's at. I think the market can support all forms because there is a big enough videophile group who prefers physical media. I see it on many forums I visit.

There is also no evidence studios are dumping or not wanting to support Blu-ray. We've seen some GREAT catalog titles come out in the last year. You're spreading pure FUD.

It sounds like you don't like physical media and prefer streaming/downloading, and that's fine.

However, streaming/downloading will NEVER match physical media for maximum PQ...especially at 4K. I believe there is a big enough market that realizes this.

And the bandwidth/infrastructure issue is a far bigger problem in the U.S. than you realize.

 

[schan1269]

"And the bandwidth/infrastructure issue is a far bigger problem in the U.S. than you realize."

I'm currently on Wild Blue. Bundled with my upgrade in ADT. Once that is up(for the ETF)...strongly thinking of swapping to HughesNet Gen4.

Still a far cry from cable internet. But...my only option. (outside VZW and Tmobile...which I already have max plans on both)

 

[Persianimmortal]

If everything you are saying is true, 4K Blu would have never even gotten off a white paper. It would have been shot down before it even got to where it's at. I think the market can support all forms because there is a big enough videophile group who prefers physical media. I see it on many forums I visit.

4K Blu-ray is turning into reality purely because consumer electronics manufacturers are desperate for native 4K content in any form so they can sell 4K displays. I suggest you look at the history of physical formats to see that plenty of them arrived with much fanfare and investment, then essentially, died quietly. Remember MiniDisc? How about Digital Compact Cassette. Even Super Audio CD, which apparently still survives among enthusiasts, has very little actual content on the format compared to digital catalogs like iTunes. What I'm saying is that 4K Blu-ray will have limited appeal, even more limited actual content, especially back catalog stuff which most of us here seem to enjoy, and thus will be an obsolete format. It will however serve its primary purpose of getting some native 4K content out there to help sell UHD TVs.

There is also no evidence studios are dumping or not wanting to support Blu-ray. We've seen some GREAT catalog titles come out in the last year. You're spreading pure FUD.

It sounds like you don't like physical media and prefer streaming/downloading, and that's fine.

Try reading what I wrote. I specifically stated that I don't prefer streaming or downloading to physical media. But I also don't engage in wishful thinking.

The evidence that studios are dumping BD is all around us. Aside from taking years to release certain major catalog titles on BD, they've farmed out a lot of it to boutique studios. If they're so keen on the format, why don't they release it themselves? The studios have, on the other hand, released the same catalog titles in digital form themselves. What does that tell you? Why does the Twilight Time model even exist, and how the hell do some classic movies on BD not even sell 3,000 copies across the world in total?

Quality is not a strong selling point in the marketplace, and catering to a niche is not a viable proposition for many companies. Look at Pioneer - they created and sold the best plasma displays money could buy, the Kuro range, which in some respects is still unbeaten today. Yet they got out of the TV market in 2009, despite all the accolades from home theater enthusiasts, because they couldn't compete with cheap low-quality LCD TVs.

Panasonic gets out of plasma production this year, despite widespread critical acknowledgement of the superiority of plasma displays. Once again due to not being able to compete with cheap, low-quality LCD displays.

And you're saying that a small cadre of quality-conscious home theater enthusiasts is going to be enough for studios to start releasing content on 4K Blu-ray beyond the handful of high-profile catalog titles and the latest titles? I'm interested in how you come to that conclusion beyond just wishful thinking.

 

[lukejosephchung]

I agree that 4k BD is, for the foreseeable future, a niche format...mainstream consumers can't readily tell the difference between it and conventional 1080p HD video. For HARDCORE HOBBYISTS, like you and me, it has the POTENTIAL to bring true THEATRICAL-quality images to the home in large-screen format (100" diagonal+screens) IF correctly executed. This is the reason I started the thread in the first place!!!

 

[Dave H]

4K Blu-ray is turning into reality purely because consumer electronics manufacturers are desperate for native 4K content in any form so they can sell 4K displays. I suggest you look at the history of physical formats to see that plenty of them arrived with much fanfare and investment, then essentially, died quietly. Remember MiniDisc? How about Digital Compact Cassette. Even Super Audio CD, which apparently still survives among enthusiasts, has very little actual content on the format compared to digital catalogs like iTunes. What I'm saying is that 4K Blu-ray will have limited appeal, even more limited actual content, especially back catalog stuff which most of us here seem to enjoy, and thus will be an obsolete format. It will however serve its primary purpose of getting some native 4K content out there to help sell UHD TVs.



Try reading what I wrote. I specifically stated that I don't prefer streaming or downloading to physical media. But I also don't engage in wishful thinking.

The evidence that studios are dumping BD is all around us. Aside from taking years to release certain major catalog titles on BD, they've farmed out a lot of it to boutique studios. If they're so keen on the format, why don't they release it themselves? The studios have, on the other hand, released the same catalog titles in digital form themselves. What does that tell you? Why does the Twilight Time model even exist, and how the hell do some classic movies on BD not even sell 3,000 copies across the world in total?

Quality is not a strong selling point in the marketplace, and catering to a niche is not a viable proposition for many companies. Look at Pioneer - they created and sold the best plasma displays money could buy, the Kuro range, which in some respects is still unbeaten today. Yet they got out of the TV market in 2009, despite all the accolades from home theater enthusiasts, because they couldn't compete with cheap low-quality LCD TVs.

Panasonic gets out of plasma production this year, despite widespread critical acknowledgement of the superiority of plasma displays. Once again due to not being able to compete with cheap, low-quality LCD displays.

And you're saying that a small cadre of quality-conscious home theater enthusiasts is going to be enough for studios to start releasing content on 4K Blu-ray beyond the handful of high-profile catalog titles and the latest titles? I'm interested in how you come to that conclusion beyond just wishful thinking.

Not wishful thinking. But I also don't believe in the world coming to an end for videophiles. I own a Panasonic 65VT60 and I am sad to see them go, but the lack of brightness on plasma is pretty much what hurt it and energy requirements didn't help either. From CES reports, full arrray LED are returning and that is a positive sign. OLED will also continue to evolve and that will destroy everything in PQ with its insane contrast ratios and incredible natural image.

4K Blu will survive as a niche format for videophiles similarly to how laser disc did. Streaming and downloading will not match it in PQ just like it doesn't match it today despite a new codec. Physical media will continue to co-exist. Blu-ray 4K is not even comparable to Super Audio and mini disc.

The consumer front projection market is actually doing well and that crowd alone could keep 4K Blu going! Factor in people with 65-80" displays and there should be no problem.

Catalog titles have EXPLODED on Blu-ray in recent years. There are titles I never dreamed would ever be released. It is simply impossible to pump out titles like they did on DVD because DVD quality was so low and many titles used laser disc transfers. LOL. It takes time to do a quality high definition transfer. In addition, the economy has changed for everyone and it just makes more economical sense to have third parties handle some titles. This is happening in every business where companies are outsourcing products and services to third party groups because it just makes business sense. This has nothing to do with lack of demand.

Let's also not forget we were told five years ago Blu-ray would be dead by now. Do you remember that? The studios were going to pull the plug on it for streaming/downloading. It didn't happen and it's not going to happen anytime soon.

The sky is not falling.

 

[Persianimmortal]

I don't ever recall anybody, five years ago, saying Blu-ray would be dead by now. Quite the opposite. Once Blu-ray won the BD vs HDDVD format war in 2008, it was expected to do well. It's only been in the last few years that the realization has hit home that BDs just aren't catching on like DVD, as this 2011 article demonstrates.

What's really telling is that in the early days of Blu-ray, there were no boutique providers; it was all studio releases. It's only been in the last few years that companies like Twilight Time, Olive, Shout Factory etc. have had to emerge to pick up the ball with regards to catalog titles on BD, because studios have lost interest in the format. Refer to the graphs I provided on the previous page to see why this is.

I don't understand why people keep saying that 4K BD will survive as a niche format, when they don't then explain who is going to provide the content for that format. The studios? Boutique providers? For a tiny market that is even smaller than BD? Obviously there is an awful lot of wishful thinking going on in the minds of some to rationalize how all of this is going to play out over the next 5-10 years.

Ultimately, we're all engaging in speculation without the full facts. I'd be interested to hear from an industry insider as to what the studios' plans are for 4K BD. Also, if Nick from Twilight Time was to chime in, I'd be very interested to hear whether TT will release on 4K Blu. This information would give us a better idea of what's really going to happen.

 

[Doug Bull]

I can't wait for the 4K discs to arrive.

I will embrace and buy them just as I have every other format from black and white reel to reel video tape all the way to Blu-ray.

 

[rsmithjr]

4k is simply a natural upgrade of an existing product category. The price will shortly be in the range that people will buy it because it "looks better" without a lot of thought. This happened a few years ago when people moved from 720p to 1080p for larger screens, despite some "video gurus" saying that 720p was good enough.

A similar thing is happening in cell phone. We are now at 1080P for cell phone screens. Samsung's new machine, due in a few months, will exceed 1080P, and by next year we will have 4k cell phones. Do you need 1080p or 4k for a cell phone? Of course not. Yet people will buy them once they become reasonable in price, and they will be standard.

For similar reasons, 4k Blu-ray players will sell once they hit a reasonable price. New movies will be released in 4k, although not a huge number of classics will benefit from 4k (large negative films certainly will benefit). Blu-ray's streaming abilities will continue to help.

All you have to do is extrapolate from the past 15 years to see this.

 

[schan1269]

I'm going to fathom a guess here...

Eventually we will see "the blockbuster" in 4K and the average Joe character movie in 1080P.

Why?

Easy answer(as a question). How many movies, last year(especially domestic), were released on DVD and not BD(and there isn't always a Region B to go buy)?

I can cite 5 examples in less than a minute, and could probably come up with 500* in about two hours.

BD 1080P and 4K will co-exist.

*And to boot. I would lay a bet that an easy 300 of those 500 are NOT streamed(illegal Youtube doesn't count).

 

[jcroy]

Hopefully the upcoming Star Wars movies will be in 4K, whether on streaming and/or on optical disc.

 

[EddieLarkin]

The vast majority of people who buy a 4K TV in the next 5 years are going to be video enthusiasts (the rest will be "newbs" with too much money to burn). They're going to want content, and they're going to want the best. Streaming is not going to cut it.

By my count, there are around 250 4K transfers of non-digital films (i.e. catalog releases) that we already have on Blu-ray. The studios have already done them. We won't get all of them on a 4K disc format, maybe not even most, but I predict many will be drip fed to the enthusiasts over these next 5 years, along with the new 4K transfers studios are doing all the time, of both catalog and new films (not to mention the 4K transfers of new digital films we already have on Blu-ray). Really, that is a boat load of content that the studios have already sunk their cash in to. Why wouldn't they want to make additional profits on something they have already invested in? 4K is not something new to the studios, they've been working in that realm for years. Being aimed at enthusiasts only, hopefully the studios will have the foresight to price them appropriately ($50-60 RRP?).

As schan says, 4K and Blu-ray will likely coexist, just as 3D Blu-ray does. That was essentially a new format that required a new TV, a new Blu-ray player (and in some cases, a new receiver), that meant much higher costs for the studios and boutique labels, but despite being very very niche, seemingly being supported entirely by enthusiasts, doesn't look like it's going away despite discs being available now for nearly 4 years! Certainly, there are no horror predictions of 3D films going streaming/download only. I expect the exact same thing to happen with 4K. Blu-ray will remain the dominant HD format, with 3D and 4K Blu-rays supplementing it where appropriate.

 

[jcroy]

The vast majority of people who buy a 4K TV in the next 5 years are going to be video enthusiasts (the rest will be "newbs" with too much money to burn). They're going to want content, and they're going to want the best. Streaming is not going to cut it.

Some hardcore video gamers may also be interested in 4K too.

Hopefully video cards which can easily handle native 4K will be inexpensive by then.

 

[jcroy]

The only chance I see for 4K Blu-ray is if somehow, through some miracle, all of the people who held off on switching to Blu-ray, and are current on DVD, suddenly get the urge to upgrade directly to 4K. In other words they leapfrog 2K Blu-ray and adopt 4K Blu-ray in droves. I don't see that happening, but it's certainly possible.

On a huge tangent.

I more or less "leapfrogged" over dvd. Until a few years ago, I had very little to no interest in buying movies. Over most of the 2000's decade, I only had around two dozen or so dvds which I rarely ever watched.

I only started buying a lot of movies a few years ago, coincidentally when blurays were already showing up in the $5 bargain bins. I ended up buying a lot of blurays of movies I use to watch a lot when I was younger. (A lot of $5 blurays of 80's and 90's action and sci-fi type movies).


If I had not started buying a lot of movies a few years ago, I don't know what would motivate me to jump onto the 4K bandwagon (and leapfrogging over dvd and 2K bluray). The upcoming Star Wars movies would not be a huge enough motivation for me to jump onto a 4K optical disc bandwagon.

 

[Dave H]

I don't ever recall anybody, five years ago, saying Blu-ray would be dead by now. Quite the opposite. Once Blu-ray won the BD vs HDDVD format war in 2008, it was expected to do well. It's only been in the last few years that the realization has hit home that BDs just aren't catching on like DVD, as this 2011 article demonstrates.

What's really telling is that in the early days of Blu-ray, there were no boutique providers; it was all studio releases. It's only been in the last few years that companies like Twilight Time, Olive, Shout Factory etc. have had to emerge to pick up the ball with regards to catalog titles on BD, because studios have lost interest in the format. Refer to the graphs I provided on the previous page to see why this is.

I don't understand why people keep saying that 4K BD will survive as a niche format, when they don't then explain who is going to provide the content for that format. The studios? Boutique providers? For a tiny market that is even smaller than BD? Obviously there is an awful lot of wishful thinking going on in the minds of some to rationalize how all of this is going to play out over the next 5-10 years.

Ultimately, we're all engaging in speculation without the full facts. I'd be interested to hear from an industry insider as to what the studios' plans are for 4K BD. Also, if Nick from Twilight Time was to chime in, I'd be very interested to hear whether TT will release on 4K Blu. This information would give us a better idea of what's really going to happen.

A lot of so-called "experts" claimed after the format war it didn't matter whether HD DVD or Blu-ray won because it would be dead in five years or so as downloading/streaming would be so hugely widespread and preferred, studios would just pull the plug. There is no sign of that happening as much as you want to believe it. Downloading/streaming is NOWHERE near being close to exclusivity. And no way in the U.S. that is happening for years and years.

As I said before, front projection marketing is doing rather well and is considered a "niche" - that alone will be enough to support 4K Blu. Factor in a huge number of 65"-90" LEDs coming out and with OLED emerging - no way there will not be a demand for the highest quality available - 4K blu.

Regarding studio "boutiques," as you call them - this is just part of the ever changing economy. The entire U.S. economy is different than it was five years ago. I am not sure being in Australia you realize how much this U.S. economy has been transformed (for better or worse). The entire U.S. financial system literally collapsed in 2008 and the country implemented, in essence, national health care. Businesses have had to adjust and this has effected them financially in many different ways. I've seen it and experienced it. All business have made adjustments and are doing things differently than they used to. How many studios are 100% solely responsible for making a movie nowadays? The answer is hardly none. How many different studio logos do you see before every movie starts? There are countless, smaller, independents now involved in almost every movie made these days. I work as a consultant in IT and have worked with a number of large companies that use smaller companies/services to handle various work. What I am getting at: NO business is 100% responsible for all of the work they provide. Outsourcing and third party in various ways is commonplace everywhere including for home video. No different. It just makes more business sense these days for a whole host of reasons and it doesn't have anything do with people not being interested in titles.

TT could sell far more than 3000 titles evidenced by the ridiculous prices people are paying on eBay for some of these titles. A lot of those titles would sell many more copies and they are by no means representative of 4K blu prospects. In fact, I question TT's business practice anyway to some extent and what they are really doing here, but I will not say more about it as I don't want to debate some of their controversial tactics.