No noticeable bass output from fronts when switching from "Small" to "Large" on (1 Viewer)

[TonyTone]

I'm probably not setting something in my Sony DA4ES, but I'm stumped nevertheless, so here goes:

I'm running JBL S38s up front; I understand that when you set the front speakers to "small" and set an appropriate xover point (say 100 Hz), you shouldn't be getting as much bass out of them than you would if you set the fronts to "large" (and setting sub to "no"). However, on my DA4ES when I set the S38 fronts to large and sub to no, there is no discernable difference in bass output between small and large (I tested with a bass-heavy track and tried all sound settings--multi-channel with/without decoding, 2-channel stereo, EQ setting on receiver disabled/flat).

Granted the following is apples and oranges, but when I perform the same test (using the same S38s) on my Pioneer VSX-D511, there is a noticeable increase in bass output when I change the front speaker setting from small to large.

Anyone--especially fellow DA4ES owners--know what I'm doing wrong, do I have a defective receiver, or is it just the nature of the DA4ES? I was quite disappointed on my findings, especially considering the receiver in question, but I'm hoping that it's just something I overlooked.

Thanks!

 

[Andrew Pierce]

You've got the sub set to 'no' in both cases?
The small/large question really mean 'redirect bass from speakers in question to sub'/'don't redirect because speakers in question are full range'. Setting the sub to no means 'redirect contents of LFE channel to main l/r speakers'. So your low end is being pulled out of your mains then added back in.
If you've got no sub, you'll probably get better results sentting your speakers to 'large' because its the same, but with less procesing. If you want to strip the bass out of your speakers (to prevent them from getting dammaged, to make more efficient use of your receiver amps, I dunno why you'd want to) set the sub to 'yes' despite the fact that none is hooked up.
Does this make sense or am I talking out my ass?

 

[Brian Bunge]

Tony,

This may be a stupid question, but are you trying this experiment with both receivers in the same room? If they are in different rooms which happen to be drastically different sizes from one another this could have something to do with it.

If you're doing this with both receivers in the same room then the problem obviously lies elsewhere.

 

[Joe Tilley]

Have you checked the obvious things first like the phase of the speakers?

 

[Felipe S]

also... even if the receiver is sending the speakers low frequency information.... they still might not be able to reproduce it. So whether its set to small or large, it'll sound (almost) the same. (i think )

 

[Jaime B]

Tony:

I have no idea if your JBL's are full range, but if they are, setting the front mains from small to large and sub to NO should make a noticeable difference, as witnessed with your Pioneer.

Since I'm not familiar with your Sony, my recommendation is to take the Sony to the local shop unless a DA4ES owner knows a trick or two about the correct set-up and posts it here.

Good luck!

 

[TonyTone]

Addressing issues brought up by fellow posters:

--Yes, the Pioneer was tested in a different room; however, the difference of the low-freq. output between the large and small setting on the Pioneer vs. that of the Sony was clearly noticeable at a listening difference of no greater than 5 feet.

--Phase is correct--no doubt about that.

--Granted the S38 isn't a tower, but the fact remains that, when I set the speakers to "large" on the Pioneer, I could clearly hear a noticeable increase in bass output at a listening distance of less than 5 feet when switching the speaker setting between small and large on the fly; on the Sony, I could hear no discernable difference.

Jaime--the S38 is a 3-way bookshelf speaker (I guess that qualifies it as a full range speaker, no?). Either the S38 is capable of producing decent bass output for an enclosure of its size, or the Pioneer must be cutting off a lot of low-freq when setting the fronts to "small", because there is clearly a change in bass output from the S38 when I switch between large and small on the Pioneer.

Any other Sony DA4ES owners who are running bookshelf speakers similar to the S38 care to test the large vs. small speaker output setting?

Thanks!

 

[AaronBatiuk]

...2-channel stereo, EQ setting on receiver disabled/flat

AHA!
There's your problem.
Try the "Auto Format Decode" soundfield. The "2-channel" soundfield is always only two channels; it will never use the sub. On the other hand, A.F.D. will use the sub if you have the receiver setup to use one.
Try also setting the crossover points very high, like 200 Hz, when you set the fronts to "small" and subwoofer to "yes". There should then be an almost complete lack of real bass (assuming you are not actually using a sub!), and the difference between this and the "large" setting will be night and day. Remember, use AFD to enable the sub. The 2-ch mode will NOT use the sub, and will NOT redirect any bass from the main speakers!

 

[TonyTone]

Aaron--that is the whole point; I'm trying to get bass out of my mains when I have them set to "large". I know, and am getting hardly any bass output from my mains when they are set to "small", and as you pointed out, there should be a difference in bass output from my mains when I switch from "small" to "large"; however, when I perform the switch on the fly on my DA4ES, there is no noticeable change (at least to my ears) of bass output from my mains at all when I switch from "small" to "large. I am not concerned as to whether or not there is any bass redirection from my mains to my sub; what it comes down to is that, although there is bass redirection taking place when I switch to "small", the reverse apparently isn't happening when I switch to "large".

 

[NickSP]

Tony, I think what Aaron was suggesting was to put the receiver in the Auto Formatting mode. That way you will get the full Bass from your front speakers. Also make sure that in the main menu, you have not set the crossover to high like 100Hz or something. Set it at 30 Hz and see if it makes any difference.

 

[AaronBatiuk]

Nick:
Actually, if Tony wants full-range output to his main speakers he should use 2-ch mode, or better yet, 2-ch analog direct (to bypass the A/D, DSP, and D/A). If he wants to have bass redirection, he must use Auto Format Decode mode, or some other surround mode. It seemed to me as if Tony was saying that he could hear no different between "large" and "small" settings in 2-ch mode; my reply was that there never is a difference because bass redirection never takes place in 2-ch mode.

 

[TonyTone]

Okay--time for me to eat a bit of humble pie; I jacked the xover for the mains to 200 Hz, then ran some music through the mains in 2-ch mode with mains set to "small"--of course, the bass was lacking in the mains. Then, I switched the mains to "large" on the fly, still in 2-ch mode--the bass output from the mains increased! What it comes down to (and I did mention a sort of disclaimer regarding the apples and oranges when comparing the Pioneer VSX-D511 against the DA4ES) is that the lowest cutoff for the mains is 100 Hz, and that I think I had the cutoff for the mains (el cheapo speakers) on the Pioneer at 150 Hz.

Although the difference in bass output when switching from small to large on the DA4ES wasn't as great as that on the Pioneer, I did hear a difference--as long as I had the xover for the mains on the Sony set really high. Of course, with the xover for the mains set at let's say 100 Hz or less, the difference in bass output between small and large on the Sony isn't as noticeable.

So, I guess it was all a matter of the xover point on the mains, and even then, I figure the bass redirection circuitry (is there such a thing?) on the Sony and Pioneer are two different beasts.

What do I know...oh well--sorry for taking up your time.