My Panasonic Blu-ray players and PS3 are cropping the sides of 4:3 DVDs

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by EddieLarkin, Mar 7, 2013.

  1. EddieLarkin

    EddieLarkin Supporting Actor

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    I've taken this query all over the net and seem to be getting nowhere. I really hope you guys can help, you're my last hope: I've discovered recently that my Panasonic BDT110, BD65, and PS3 all have some sort of built in overscan that I cannot turn off. It does not affect Blu-rays or anamorphic DVDs, only 4:3 DVDs. This is how 4:3 DVDs look through my players, on my Panasonic GT30 TV (which has overscan set to Off!), through my Onkyo receiver (be aware though, whether the players are connected through the AV or straight to the TV makes no difference): http://i.imgur.com/F9Vki38.jpg I noticed the images were too narrow, and indeed when I measure them they are approximately 1.29:1. I have 3 other players I have access to, an Xbox 360, my PC and an old DVD player (that connects via HDMI). Whether I connect them to the TV directly or through the AV, the image looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/FiL1V0A.jpg Notice I have gained information on both sides, and the image now measures precisely 1.33:1. I've been trying to figure out this problem for so long now I'm not at all confident I'll find a solution, unless I buy a new BD player. I don't want to have to use my Xbox/PC/DVD player as you can see from the images, the upscaling is far superior on the Panasonic BD players/PS3. What I'd really like someone here to do is, to try and replicate the above. If you have a PS3 or a similar model Panasonic BD, grab a 4:3 DVD and see if the same happens. A quick way to see if it's been cropped is to just zoom the image (using the player zoom, NOT TV zoom). This appears to bypass the overscan. Here is an example: http://i.imgur.com/GVRYIcD.jpg http://i.imgur.com/NPSQfqF.jpg Again, the first image is 1.29:1, and the zoomed image reveals what is missing from the sides. This way, at least if we all experience the same thing, I can junk these pieces of crap and buy something else. If you don't experience the same thing, I know some sort of solution is possible. For the record, this is what I've already tried: - bypassing the AV and connecting direct to the TV - using a different TV - using different HDMI cables - turning off the upscaling on the BD players, and sending only native 480p/576i content to the TV. The images are cropped in the same way - making sure my TV gives 100% overscan. Spears and Munsil disc confirms it does, through all of my sources. - turning 24p mode off - switching from 16:9 mode, to 16:9 FULL, 4:3 Letterbox etc. The image appears differently, but never reveals the missing info.
     
  2. Jim Mcc

    Jim Mcc Producer

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    I have the BD65 also, hooked up to a 16:9 TV. I have never had a problem with 4:3 material(discs or Netflix streaming). The correct setting is 16:9. This will display the 4"3 image in the center, with bars on each side. The 16:9 FULL setting stretches the image horizontally to fill the screen. And under "HDMI Resolution" I have mine set to "AUTO".
     
  3. EddieLarkin

    EddieLarkin Supporting Actor

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    This is true, and is how mine is set up. If you actually measure the dimensions of the 4:3 DVD images I'm confident you'll find they are narrower than they should be, approximately 1.29:1. If you zoom the image using the remote, Option-Screen Aspect-Zoom, you'll notice the missing information appears on the left and right, the way it does in the second set of caps I've posted. This will only work if your TV overscan is off completely. If you could try this I would be very grateful
     
  4. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    I have both a Pioneer DV420 and Oppo 970. I got the Pioneer for $50($60 for these if you are impatient and just want one) and the Oppo for $55(yes, I was lucky). I had both set up together to see if the Pioneer was any better, picture wise, than the Oppo(the Oppo scales to 720P). It wasn't...so the Pioneer went to another room. (by the way, have both for their region-free ability with PAL) Both scale better than my BD35...which uses the exact circuitry as your BD65. And to get to the crux of your thread... Neither of those has a problem properly showing 4:3..with the correct detail. Edit: I also have a LG DN191 that shows 4:3 correctly...although it doesn't scale as well as the Pioneer. But you can buy them cheap. (I bought the Pioneer not realizing the LG played PAL...but now the LG is the third wheel...as I don't typically watch foreign film but in the living room and master bedroom) Edit II: The reason I bring up these three DVD players is... 1. They are cheap to get(and in the case of a 970, which is readily available for $80-$110...depending if it still has the original box/bag plays SACD/DVD-A over HDMI) 2. If you have enough 4:3 content to worry about...what is another $50-$100 for a player dedicated to eradicate the problem.
     
  5. EddieLarkin

    EddieLarkin Supporting Actor

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    Does your BD35 show it correctly though? It can be difficult to tell with the naked eye, between 1.33:1 and something slightly narrower. The best way to make sure is the zoom test I've detailed above.
     
  6. Cameron Yee

    Cameron Yee Executive Producer
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    The interesting part of this is that you're saying it's not isolated to Panasonic BD players, but also your PS3, which would suggest it's your display. But you also said you tried a different TV, I'm assuming not another Panasonic plasma? Intriguing...
     
  7. EddieLarkin

    EddieLarkin Supporting Actor

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    Actually, I've also swapped out one of my Pannys with a crappy Philips BD player I borrowed, and it displays properly. The DVDs show true 4:3 and reveal the missing information. So it cannot be the screen or the AV, it definitely is the players.
     
  8. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    I have never checked if my BD35 properly displays 4:3. It is a BD player. I've never used a BD player to play DVD. The other DVD players(upscaling) that are in the house...(or have owned...notated with a *) Denon 3910 (yeah I know these can play PAL and be region free...but the mod is ridiculous. It was less expensive, at the time I bought it, to buy a specific player) Denon 1940* Integra DPS 6.7 Onkyo DV-SP504* Panasonic S77*
     
  9. Charles Smith

    Charles Smith Extremely Talented Member
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    I've seen this happen! And I'm sorry to say I don't remember the circumstances -- which discs, which player I was using at the time, etc. -- so, no help. But I know exactly what he's talking about, as far as the truncated image is concerned. It's maddening.
     
  10. EddieLarkin

    EddieLarkin Supporting Actor

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    At least I know now I'm not going crazy!
     
  11. Mark-P

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    What do you have the HDMI output resolution of your player set to? 1080p or Original? In other words is the player doing the upscaling of your 480i DVDs or is the Display doing the upscaling? I have a funny notion that if you have the player do the upscaling to 1080p your problem will disappear.
     
  12. EddieLarkin

    EddieLarkin Supporting Actor

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    The player always has done the upscaling, changing it to the TV makes no difference. Anyway, thanks for the help but I've had confirmation this is present on other Panasonic units as well. It seems they only show 4:3 DVD material as 704 pixels wide, rather than the full 720. David Mackenzie from HDTV test confirmed it via criterionforum: http://criterionforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=450&p=426095#p426069 If you have a Panny BD player (or a PS3, but it may be limited to the fat models) you can use David's test pattern to show the pixels are being cropped off.
     
  13. Jason Charlton

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    If you've already addressed this issue on as many forums as you say, and you have had multiple people confirm what you describe, then I think you can rest assured that this anomaly exists.
    However, I would certainly not call the Panny BD players "pieces of crap". They apparantly exhibit an issue with a very unique use-case - one that is not very common and has likely gone unnoticed by many people.
    I guess I fail to see what your true dilemma is. The Pannys won't work for you. That's too bad - personally, I love my Panny player and since I don't watch much 4x3 DVD content (or when I do, I'm not going to notice or mind if I'm missing 16 pixels on the sides), this particular problem doesn't affect my opinion on the player.
    You've already confirmed that the problem does NOT exist on other Blu-ray players. So get another Blu-ray player! Perpetuating a thread simply to rag on a particular product (we even TRY not to let the Bose bashing carry on too much around here) just gets tiresome.
    It's interesting, no doubt, but that's about the extent of it, really.
     
  14. Charles Smith

    Charles Smith Extremely Talented Member
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    I'm the one who said above that I'd had it happen a few times, too. And my former BD player was indeed a Panny, which must be what I was using when I experienced it.
    BUT... I play all manner of discs, all the time, and this only happened a couple of times. I am very aware of aspect ratio issues, and if it had been a constant thing with that player, you would have heard me SCREAMING for months.
    I don't know what this tells us, but there it is. Just a few discs. Wish I could remember what they were!
     
  15. EddieLarkin

    EddieLarkin Supporting Actor

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    I had no confirmation of the issue until a few hours ago. When I posted here I was completely unsure about it. The purpose of this topic was not to bash Panasonic. Although, now that I have identified it as a problem that originates with the player and cannot be corrected, I'm not exactly going to rush to their defense. But that doesn't make me some Panny basher, as stated in the very first post, my PS3 does the exact same thing too. I wouldn't call the issue something that occurs during a "unique use". I play hours and hours of 4:3 DVDs (think of how many pre-1953 films I'd miss out on if I didnt!), and make no mistake it happens on all of them. The test pattern I posted above proves it. So my dilemma is that I watch a lot of 4:3 DVDs, and the missing 16 pixels bothers me. Especially since I have to take another 16 pixels of the top and bottom to get the image to 1.33:1. 1.29:1 looks uncomfortably narrow. I will be buying a new BD player, a decision I had not settled on when I made this thread.
     
  16. schan1269

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    I have no idea why you need to replace a BD player when I already gave you the correct option. Buy a DVD player capable of showing 4:3(1.33:1) correctly on a 16:9 display. If you notice...this is a BD player problem, all of them. Go check some DVD->BD movies....such as Maltese Falcon...(oh lookie, I'll give you a hint...the aspect ratio changes DVD->BD) http://www.amazon.com/Maltese-Falcon-Three-Disc-Special/dp/B000GIXLW0/ref=sr_1_4?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1362763800&sr=1-4&keywords=maltese+falcon http://www.amazon.com/Maltese-Falcon-Blu-ray-Humphrey-Bogart/dp/B0020MMRC0/ref=sr_1_3?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1362763800&sr=1-3&keywords=maltese+falcon I own both of those. Almost all 1.33:1 DVD have been changed to 1.37:1 on BD. (done a wee bit of research...many BD that say 1.33:1 are really 1.37:1. I think Modern Times is really 1.37:1 on the Criterion Blu)
     
  17. EddieLarkin

    EddieLarkin Supporting Actor

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    It isn't a problem for all BD players, as already discussed above, and has nothing to do with the changing of aspect ratios between DVD and BD discs. I think you're maybe confused.
     
  18. schan1269

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    No, I'm not the one confused. Research aspect ratios. You'll find the original DVD for 1.37 movies was adjusted to 1.33...by the player. When you set your DVD player for 16:9 it re-sets the image to the correct 1.37...instead of a cropped 1.33. BD players don't do that, because they are BD players. But...some manufacturers put the "return a 1.37 DVD back to 1.37" in their BD players. So...what exists in all DVD players...does not exist in all BD players. What adds to the confusion... Many talking movies say they have a 1.33 aspect ratio...when they are really 1.37. Because of that fact...many BD players are set to read all DVD "at overscan" so you miss the .04 of the image.
     
  19. EddieLarkin

    EddieLarkin Supporting Actor

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    There is no such thing as a 1.37:1 image on a DVD. The DVD format supports 1.33:1 only (this includes widescreen films, the image is stretched to fill the 4:3 spec and then "anamorphised" by the player). For the record, my BD player was cropping 1.33:1 DVDs to 1.29:1. I measured it.
     
  20. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    So the fact the DVD of Maltese Falcon is 1.33 and the BD is 1.37 is totally lost on you... Done here.
     

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