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"Grease" the begining of the end (1 Viewer)

Joseph DeMartino

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Geez, Jeff, can you "talk" a little louder?

Which concerns and inconveniences? How do I count the ways?

1. Laserdisc debuted around the same time as the VCR. VCRs didn't just enable to people to watch movies at home. (That was an ability added a couple of years after they were starting to show up in peoples' homes.) It also replaced the old 8mm movie camera and projector. A "two-fer". Laserdisc was a playback only system.

2. Laserdiscs, both players and software, were expensive.

3. Side breaks? Disk swaps? Do you remember any of this?

4. For most of LD's history big screen TV technology was in its infancy. Horrible front projection systems and dim RPTVs which could only be seen from directly in front of them dominated. Most folks were watching 19" to 25" TVs - and therefore got little benefit from the better picture and sound. The fact that many LDs were widescreen only made them even less attractive to folks with such a setup.

5. Few people had sound systems connected to their TVs, and therefore got no benefit from the superior sound. Digital sound? What the heck is that?

6. The discs were large, heavy and inconvenient to store (as compared to VHS tapes.)

7. Almost nobody rented LDs. Rental is what made VHS take off.

8. Were there any porn LDs? Porn (and rental) really helped VHS sell enough to make it interesting to the legitimate studios.

The fact is that even DVD would not be the success it has been if certain things were not already in place:

1. A large installed base of large screen TVs (mostly put there by sports, not home theater.)

2. A saturated VHS market. Now that most people already had a player/recorder in their homes, and had for years, they were more open to a better quality playback-only system. This wasn't the case when LD debuted. Few people could afford both. (This is why I never believed the early doom-sayers who said that DVD would not take off because it wasn't recordable. "So what?" I asked, "CDs aren't recordable, either. Most people already have video and audio recorders, and CDs show that they'll happily add a higher-quality playback-only system if its affordable.")

3. A public accustomed to watching movies at home, and even to enjoying stereo sound with them. (Thanks to price drops for all components involved, a robust rental market and a burgeoning collector's market in VHS.)

4. An existing, successful, format that people were comfortable with already in place. CDs also helped pave the way for DVDs. People were familiar with them. You could describe DVD as "like a CD only with a movie on it" and immediately get the idea across. People were also familiar with (and liked) the handy form-factor - common to audio CDs and the things they used in their computers. Psychologically, this was a big help.

If LD had never existed, and were introduced in 1997, it might have had a success somewhat like DVD has enjoyed - because the stars were all aligned and the timing was right. However, by the time the stars were all aligned DVD was already on the horizon. Few were interested in investing in LD when a probably superior format was on the way.

Timing, not marketing, kept LD a niche product.

Regards,

Joe
 

Eugene Hsieh

Supporting Actor
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Yes, timing and cost had a lot to do with LD's non-acceptance (although it was relatively popular in certain parts of Asia).
Many of us avoided LD though in North America also because we found the format inconvenient. The discs were big and unwieldy, and fragile, and despite their size still required one to get up to flip the discs from time to time. This is OK for some people, but it drove other people (including myself) up the wall.
The only time I really enjoyed laserdisc was at the KTVs in Asia. You sit in your own private room with a relatively nice TV and leather couch, but the LD was in another room. When you hit the side break you call them, and they immediately flip the LD for you. In the meantime you order a nice drink and snacks, brought to your door. Call me lazy if you wish. :)
 

Joseph DeMartino

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...and despite their size still required one to get up to flip the discs from time to time.
Well, later machines were able to do a side change by themselves (while you sat and looked at a blue screen for 15 or 20 seconds - and people complain about DVD layer changes! :)) But disc-swaps were still an unavoidable problem unless you had two players. I don't think anyone ever made an LD "changer" :D
Regards,
Joe
 

Colin Jacobson

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I don't think anyone ever made an LD "changer"
Pioneer once made a dual-disc player. It could handle two LDs side-by-side, and it also would flip sides, so theoretically, you could watch four hours of footage without moving from your seat. However, the players had MANY problems and didn't stay on the market all that long - Pioneer gave up on them pretty quickly...
 

Wayne Bundrick

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I don't think anyone ever made an LD "changer"
I've seen one. It was the size of a refrigerator. Actually it was a robotic laserdisc storage system for television automation. Like the data vault scene with Vanessa Williams in "Eraser", but the discs were 12 inches instead of 5.
 

SpenceJT

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-RANT-

...and another thing. I WISH manufacturers (and consumers) would STOP CALLING 4X3 "digital televisions" HDTV, or HD-Ready THEY ARE NOT!

4x3 digital televisions do not subscribe to the HDTV standard aspect ratio of 16x9! Unfortunately manufacturers and resellers want to make an easy buck and toss such 4x3 fodder and attempt to pass it off as "HD" or "HD-Ready". Yes I realize they will display the various resolution standards put out by an HD broadcast, but if they don't meet the aspect ratio of 16x9, they aren't true HD sets!

The only television format that is "true" high definition is the 16x9 digital sets with the minimum capability of displaying 540P!

-/RANT-
 

Eugene Hsieh

Supporting Actor
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Yes I realize they will display the various resolution standards put out by an HD broadcast, but if they don't meet the aspect ratio of 16x9, they aren't true HD sets!
Is this a formal standard? Even if so I don't see anything wrong with a 4:3 HDTV, if it will display 16:9 with the black/grey bars, at full resolution.

As much as I like them, the world doesn't revolve around only 16:9 movies.
 

Michael St. Clair

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4x3 digital televisions do not subscribe to the HDTV standard aspect ratio of 16x9! Unfortunately manufacturers and resellers want to make an easy buck and toss such 4x3 fodder and attempt to pass it off as "HD" or "HD-Ready". Yes I realize they will display the various resolution standards put out by an HD broadcast, but if they don't meet the aspect ratio of 16x9, they aren't true HD sets!
By that argument, when Showtime HD broadcasts a 2.35:1 movie in OAR, it is not HD because it is not 16:9. Crop em all!
Zenith made a giant 4:3 projection set with 9" CRTs that can resolve the full 1920x1080i resolution of HD in a 16:9 squeeze mode.
Now, you are going to put a 40" 16:9 Toshiba next to it that can only resolve around 900x1080i, less than half the resolution, and tell me that it is the only real HDTV because the piece of plastic on the front of the set is shaped differently? Riiiiiiiiiiight.
This is the HTF, and we should know that the aspect ratio of the material, displaying it in the maximum resolution and fidelity is what is important, not whether it fits some arbitrary piece of plastic.
Taking a set that has pre-squeezed 4:3 CRTs inside and artificially shortening the height of the passive screen does not make a set HD.
 

David Lambert

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There is no "standard" of Digital TV or Hi-Def TV being in 16x9.

The Balanced Budget Act of '97 referred to widescreen TV's simply because of the assumption at the time that HDTV's would all be 16x9.

History since then has proven that to be a wrong assumption.


It's that simple. Again, no mandate. Just assumptions, which turned out to be wrong.
 

RAF

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A few observations from the Old Guy.
While the prediction that started this whole thread going is undoubtedly overstated (probably by a decade or so) I can still see why it was brought up. (No, I don't agree that John and Newton-John are signalizing the end of DVD as we know it).
Coincidentally, yesterday (7/4/02) marked the FIFTH anniversary of the HTF in its present incarnation. But many of us go back to 1979 when Micronet (pre-Compuserve) started with some Consumer Electronics Forums and we've been through a lot over the years.
I can't help but notice how quickly things have moved so I do have a little understanding of the initial (overstated) posting. Just 5 years ago Ron Epstein and myself (and most others) were predicting that DVDs wouldn't quickly replace LDs because the quality of the little disc wouldn't be as good. This was quickly proven wrong (at least in the picture end of things) and just the other day my DVD collection overtook my LD collection in total number of titles of each. (Like I mentioned in another thread - wild coincidence. 1776 of each!)
Now DVDs are cheaper, look better and offer many more features than our treasured LDs (an occasional title still not available on DVD making LDs still viable for me).
A little over 2 years ago I installed a front projector (Sony VW10HT) and have been enjoying it ever since. It is HDTV capable and many friends asked me how I could own such a nice unit without taking advantage of HDTV. They said that as good as DVD looked, HDTV would blow it away.
Finally, less than a year ago I installed a DISH network, complete with a HDTV tuner (Dish 6000) and you know what? They were absolutely correct! As good as DVD is, HDTV is another step upward. I have a pretty good set up and have had the opportunity to A/B an HDTV presentation of a movie against the DVD counterpart and can state, without question, that the HDTV version looks clearer.
Am I waiting for HDDVDs anxiously? Definitely! Will I probably replace some of my favorite DVDs with HDDVDs? Yes. I'm not going to fall into the "I already have it on LD, why would I want it on DVD" trap again. Yes, some older (non-anamorphic) stuff and TV series look just fine on LDs and I'm sure that a large amount of my current DVDs will be just fine in "standard" DVD format.
But then there are the new, not yet made movies that will take full advantage of the HDDVD and beyond format(s). In addition, I won't be so myopic as to state, "I'm not buying that title again!."
Depends on the title.
Depends on the transfer.
Depends on how much I like the movie.
Bring 'em on. Terminator II for the Umpteenth time. Star Wars all over again. Alien? The Abyss? John Belushi in "Wired?" Why not?!?
Are we having fun yet?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Five years ago I would not have believed how far DVD would have progressed (even though I was rooting hard.) DVD is not dead by any means, but I won't be so presumptuous as to predict where video and audio media will be five years down the road. One thing I do know is that it will be a fascinating journey!
:emoji_thumbsup: :emoji_thumbsup:
 

SpenceJT

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Sorry to fire up an argument on aspect ratio and what constitutes "true HDTV", but I still have to disagree that 4x3 televisions are not by definition of standard "HDTV" or "HDTV-Ready" televisions.
First, I totally agree with Robert A Fowkes, and anxiously await the release of HD-DVD, as well as any HD-DVD recordable standard that may be in development.
Now, back to my fun little argument about HDTV standards and the aspect ratio of true HD televisions. Here is some proof to back up my earlier statement. Witness FCC's documents regarding HDTV standards (Moderator please feel free to move my posts to another forum area or thread if they don't belong here).
Check out page 5 (page 15 if you count the TOC) of this FCC document indicating HDTV standards. Link Removed
By that argument, when Showtime HD broadcasts a 2.35:1 movie in OAR, it is not HD because it is not 16:9. Crop em all!
Not at all. Broadcasts of wider (2.35:1 etc.) aspect ratios (black bars included) are output as a 16x9 signal. In this instance, it is no different than viewing a 16x9 letterboxed as broadcast in 4x3.
While a 4x3 "EDTV" set may display the same resolution as a 16x9 HD/HD-Ready set, it does not conform to the "Industry Standard" for High Definition.
...feel free to talk amongst yourselves. :D
P.S. YES I AM HAVING FUN! :laugh::laugh::laugh:
 

Eugene Hsieh

Supporting Actor
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Just 5 years ago Ron Epstein and myself (and most others) were predicting that DVDs wouldn't quickly replace LDs because the quality of the little disc wouldn't be as good.
Hmmmm... 5 years ago, I was convinced that DVD technology as a whole would blow LD out of the water in North America. ie. Some of us believed that DVD would revolutionize the industry, and fairly quickly. (The only thing that threw a wrench in that belief was when Divx was announced later on. I knew it would be crushed, but didn't know exactly what effect it would have on DVD.)
Sure, it's just a good guess on my part and I've been quite wrong before (including my prediction previously that we'd see lots of SVHS movies in the rental shops), but nonetheless it always seemed to me as a casual observer that the support for DVD was absolutely tremendous even at that early stage, and much more ubiquitous than the support for LD. It could be a mistaken impression, but nonetheless that's what was my impression was.
I will also go on record to say that I believe the next evolutionary step in the mainstream will be recordable DVD and not any recordable HD format.
Am I pining for HD-DVD though? Yes of course! :) But I won't hold my breath for it...
 

Michael St. Clair

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Capable of displaying a 16:9 image
Well, that pretty much clinches it. All of the current crop of 4:3 HD sets are completely capable of showing 16:9 images. :emoji_thumbsup:
There were some early 4:3 1080i sets that Tosh and Matsushita made that stretched the 16:9 image to 4:3 and/or zoomed it and cropped the sides, but those days are long gone.
Believe it or not, there are some 16:9 sets that convert all 1080i to 810i. I guess you would consider a 40" 16:9 set with a resolution of around 900x810i to be a real HD set while a 56" 4:3 set that displays true 1920x1080i in a 16:9 mode to be something less. :rolleyes
 

RAF

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5 years ago, I was convinced that DVD technology as a whole would blow LD out of the water in North America. ie. Some of us believed that DVD would revolutionize the industry, and fairly quickly.
Eugene,
While I agree with your premise I still didn't think that it would be quite as fast as it was. I based this on the fact that VHS was firmly entrenched as a mainstream source of movie rentals (plus you can record on VHS) and the fact that a large segment (some would say major segment) of the population doesn't seem to care that much about video quality as long as they can make out the picture and sound. (Not the people who frequent forums like this, of course.)
What I forgot to factor in, however, was the fact that DVDs seem "familiar" to those brought up on the CD. Unlike the big bulky platters reminiscent of LP's, the DVD had an advantage here. And the fact that DVD players also play CDs is a major reason why so many people embraced DVD players. And more players sold, the lower the prices. A cycle feeding on itself.
And as to HD-DVD? You know when that will happen. As soon as the powers that be feel that those of us who are early adopters have to be prodded into pulling the trigger again the HD-DVD will be the carrot to lure us to buy titles over again. As I said before, the quality of HD is enough of a step forward from regular DVD to certainly make me consider such an action. I imagine that once there are enough HDTV sets the base will be there to make it viable.
Here we go again!
 

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