Flagship receivers = Overpriced?? (1 Viewer)

[Jeremy Hegna]

Aslam,

You can click and paste my comments all you want. You've taken them completely out of context and you obviously do not understand sarcasm. I've addressed your reputation in another thread, this will be my last reply to you.

Milt,

"I have yet to see a feature-by-feature comparison between the Denon and the Sony DA5ES that can justify the additional $2700 overhead (excluding the amps and using it as a pre/pro) by yourself or others so vehemently defending the flagships."

Forget features. The sound of the 5800 is better than that of the DA5 ES, period. That is why I purchased my 5800, the sound. The features are an added bonus, so is its upgradability. I don't think any flagship owner feels the need to justify the $1500 more (not $2700 more) they paid for their receiver to a non-owner...why? Because they are content with the sound of their system. It seems to me that you have room for improvement in your system...maybe that is why you started this thread.

I would like to echo another comment earlier. There is no need to exaggerate the price difference in the units compared. If you are going to quote lowest online prices for the Sony, you should do it for the rest of the units you are comparing it too.

Jeremy

 

[Angelo_Petralba]

Duke

#1 the sony is only 5 channels, these other flagship are 7 channels of amps and 7.1 pre/pro with real ES/EX processing. Not 5 channels amps and Virtual matrix 6.1

FYI

The Sony has 6 Channels of Amplification.

my 2 cents

 

[Ricky T]

Milt,
While we're on prices and values. IF the Onkyo person sold his Onkyo 989 today, he'd get about $1750, or he's out $700 from his initial $2450 cost. The Sony guy could sell his DA5ES for ~ $600; he'd be out $1100 from his $1700 investment. So the Onkyo guy over the last two years would spend ~ $400 LESS, and have the better receiver the WHOLE time.
As for me, I bought a 989 used for $1300, got the $50 upgrade, used is happily for 9 months, then sold it for $1900, and got a Lexicon MC1 for $2200. That means I got into an MC1 for $1650 AND used the onkyo for 9 months. Oh life is good Let's talk prices some more, I'm just starting............

 

[Jack F]

Why do the Flagship owners have to get all emotional and extrapolate/exaggerate just to make the other side look stupid.

You didn't state - Why do the Jeremy's have to get all emotional and extrapolate/exaggerate just to make the other side look stupid.
I am a Flagship owner and I don't extrapolate or exaggerate just to make the other side look stupid, (not that I think Jeremy does either. I have no opinion on that ). I wasn't even aware that their were SIDES. I just thought this was a neat place to share findings and experiences with other people in hopes of making their journey in search of audio nirvana more pleasureable. I know I have learned a ton here. The most valueable thing that the members of this great forum have taught me is - don't believe anything you read. Seperate fact from fiction, experience from assumption and intelligence from ignorance .
I do find the information that is posted without substance or experience to be annoying. What posseses someone to make assumptions and post them as if they are tried, tested and proven? If you have had a 5800 and 3802 side by side in your home and tested them. Please state your opinions. If not, why would you want to make a guess, take a stab or otherwise post an impression or assumption about that comparison?
Jack

 

[JackS]

If I bought a flagship, I would have to live with it as is(although happily I presume). One advantage the big receivers have over their lesser counterparts is thay have been maxxed out for built in amp/pre-amp performance. The same same cannot be said for their little brothers and the expectation that an external amplifier would be connected. There is a little hit or miss here. Mid priced Denons, SonyES, HK's etal, are all canidates and only canidates until one can prove to him/herself, that they actually do compete. If you hit on the right combo, the receiver can be updated every couple of years, or if your so inclined, you can move into a full seperates configuration. Choices and decisions, we can all make them and be confident that our choice was the right choice for us.

 

[Aslam Imran]

You didn't state - Why do the Jeremy's have to get all emotional and extrapolate/exaggerate just to make the other side look stupid.

That was a question I asked which was later on clarified by Milt.
Jeremy, what happened I was looking forward to your theories about Alpha 24 processing and its implementation in the 5803. When ever you can't find a justification you seem to either resort to sarcasm (as you already said) or just plain poke fun. There is one other question that you didn't respond to from the other thread but then given your reputation I dont hope to get a response to that either
Well, I guess that would be my last response/quotation to/of you as you obviously seem to be on the edge

 

[Kevin Alexander]

Anyone interested in using a receiver as a preamp should look in the middle of the road receivers with MSRP's of 1k or over to have a chance at a successful amp/receiver combo.

Not at all true. I have a Yamaha HTR-5250 that has recently been reborn and reinvented due to adding outboard amplification, and guess what?...It retailed for $500! I want to sell it only because I want "Logic 7" and "PLII". I will concede that even though the yamaha as a preamp sounds great, I think that there is better sound to be had which is why the Sony 5ES and Harman Kardon AVR 320 are on my short list for receivers to assume preamp duties.

 

[ChrisAG]

Flagship receivers are no more overpriced than flagship BMWs and Mercedes - some people think they are uncecessarily decadent, others are willing to spend the extra cash to get the incremental performance benefits that gold-plated this or that provides.

As for the performance benefits of cheaper separates vs. flagship receivers: maybe people want everything in one box, and can't be bothered wrestling with yet another component. I can totally respect that, just as I can totally respect the pre/pro enthusiast route.

 

[MiltK]

Flagship owners,

My apologies for the pricing errors. It's easy to get a little mixed up with all these prices and components. Still it doesn't take away from my original post.

The bottom line is that a DA5ES receiver + separate amp represents a tremendous value in today's market whereas you'll be spending a lot more on a flagship receiver with, IMHO, questionable value. Personally, I have not heard any flagship receiver by itself (using only internal amps) to be comparable soundwise to the $750 DA5ES + Bryston amp combo in my system. The DA5ES has all of the features I deem important (6 channels, DPII, DTS-ES, separate xovers and EQ for each channel, phono input, dual 5.1 and 7.1 analog inputs, etc.) found in few if any of the flagship receivers at a much lower price. Couple this with a decent outboard amplifier and you'll have at least a great 2-channel system that will last you a long time. Then again, maybe those of us with "golden ears" can discern the differences between this combo and a flagship receiver a lot better than I can. At least in my case and maybe others, the DA5ES receiver/outboard amp combo is the way to go. People who are interested in purchasing a flagship receiver should think hard about getting one when so many less-costly alternatives are out there.

I'm beginning to realize that this is a fight I cannot win here due to the inordinate amount of fanatical flagship receiver owners so I'll bow out gracefully. This thread has evolved into personal criticisms, petty bickering, and self-justification posts and are not constructive.

 

[JackS]

Kevin- Sorry. I realise that was a blanket statement which is not based on any fact at all. When I made it, I decided to err in favor on the upper mid-priced receivers. My thought was that this range was "most likley" to work successfully as a pre-amp.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Alright, Aslam...since you had the other thread closed, here goes...

The Denon 5800 in Pure Direct Mode....

"• Analog Devices AD-1853 24 bit, 192 kHz highest resolution DACs - each audio channel operating in dual-DAC differential mode • Pure Audio mode, features 4 DACs per audio channel in dual-differential mode • ALPHA 24 processing in Stereo/Direct/Pure Direct modes (left/right channels) processing via SHARC DSP • Real 24 bit, up to 192 kHz Digital Interface Receiver •"

The Denon 4802 in Pure Direct Mode....

"• Analog Devices AD-1854 24 bit, 96 kHz highest resolution DACs • Pure Direct audio mode, Shuts down video and/or DSP sections for the highest audio fidelity • ALPHA 24 processing in Stereo/Direct/Pure Direct modes (front left/right channels) processing via SHARC DSP •"

As you can see, the differences between the 5800 and 4802 are the DACs and the dual differential mode (stacking of the DACs)...the DACs themselves are different, 24 bit 192khz in the 5800 and 24bit 96khz in the 4802...

But you wanted to know the difference between the 4802 and the 5803....so here is the status of the 5803....

"• 24 bit, 192 kHz A/D conversion (Burr-Brown PCM-1804 x 4) on all analog inputs, including External 7.1 inputs • 16 Burr-Brown PCM-1738E 24-bit, 192-kHz highest resolution DACs, with DSD compatibility - each audio channel operating in differential mode • Pure Audio mode, features 4 DACs per audio channel in dual-differential mode • ALPHA 24 Processing Plus in Stereo/Direct/Pure Direct modes (left/right channels) •"

The 5803 and the upgraded 5800 will sport this configuration. The latest generation of high resolution Burr-Brown DACs, DSD compatible DACs, and once again using the dual differential mode in Pure Direct. The Alpha 24 Processing in the 5803 is a new version of the AL24 in the non-upgraded 5800s and the 4802s. Notice the (Plus) after the AL24 quote above.

Hope this answers your question on how the AL24 is implemented on the different receivers, the different DACs, and the alignment of them for optimum sound using the Pure Direct mode.

Jeremy

 

[Jack F]

The bottom line is that a DA5ES receiver + separate amp represents a tremendous value in today's market whereas you'll be spending a lot more on a flagship receiver with, IMHO, questionable value. Personally, I have not heard any flagship receiver by itself (using only internal amps) to be comparable soundwise to the $750 DA5ES + Bryston amp combo in my system.

Which Flagship Receivers by themself did you demo in your home theater beside the Sony/Bryston combo that helped you to reach your conclusion? That is all I want to know.

 

[MiltK]

Jack F,
B&K AVR 202, 307, and Sony STR-DA5ESin my house. Denon 4800 and 5800 and Integra 9.1 at store-auditions.
The question is not whether I've demoed every single flagship receiver, it's really a matter of value to me. Can I achieve the same sound with a cheaper solution? You bet. Can I discern the any differences in sound between a flagship and my DA5ES + Bryston amp that would force me to spend hundreds of dollars more on a flagship? Not at all.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Isn't the price of the Sony ES receiver and Bryston amplifier pretty similar to that of a new flagship receiver?

I guess I missed this point during the thread. If the price of the Sony is around $800 and the Bryston is $1500 that is several hundred more dollars than the Onkyo 989 and equal to the price of a new Denon 5800 or the Pioneer 49TX.

Also, Milt...An in home audition is a much better gauge than in store on how it will perform in your environment. You have probably tweaked your room at home for better acoustics, maybe some room treatment, correct speaker placement, etc. In most showrooms that I have seen (with the exception of high end dedicated rooms) they are not set up in the optimum fashion for a good audition.

You may be surprised at how well one of those flagship receivers sounds at your house. Any chance of an audition so we can all be on the same page here?

Jeremy

 

[Jack F]

The question isn't whether or not you are happy with your setup. I can read between the lines and see quite clearly that you are happy.
The question is, does your post contain any valuable information. Is it accurate or misleading to people that don't know better.
Here is your original post -

The question is not whether I've demoed every single flagship receiver, it's really a matter of value to me. Can I achieve the same sound with a cheaper solution? You bet. Can I discern the any differences in sound between a flagship and my DA5ES + Bryston amp that would force me to spend hundreds of dollars more on a flagship? Not at all.

The question is - do you have the knowledge and or experience to make these claims in a public forum and then back them up? Or are you just stating an opinion as fact and if we don't like it, well tough. You will move on and it will just be so.
I will take your statements for what they are. Your opinions based on your experiences. Does that make them right? To you, yes.
If the preamp section in that DA5ES sounds anything like the TA-E9000 preamp section, I can guarantee you that it would sound so bad in my setup that even you would hate it.

 

[Robert_Dufresne]

Jack I read your post and have a question

I noticed that most flagship receivers have a toroid

transformer and much bigger caps. Could this be part of the explenation for the price difference between flagships

and midpriced models ??

Robert

 

[chaz fifer]

Milt,
I think that its irrisponsible to make the claims about your equipment's performance being able to equal or exceed any receiver that you don't have complete first hand knolege of.The only way to prove your claims is to compare each receiver in the exact same environment,using the same speakers placed exactly the same way! (in other words,testing each model in your own personal HT or listening room)I personally have heard flagship receivers setup in audio retail stores that sounded like crap to me.Probably because they were setup wrong,hooked up to display speakers placed for showrooms,and not for sound quality!
For future advice,I suggest not posting the bold claims that started this thread unless you have forehand knoledge of the products you are comparing.

 

[Jack F]

Jack I read your post and have a question

I noticed that most flagship receivers have a toroid

transformer and much bigger caps. Could this be part of the explenation for the price difference between flagships

and midpriced models ??

Robert

Hi Robert,

While I am sure that is part of the price difference between the lesser models and the flagships, it is only part of the equation. As I said in my earlier post, I tried those 6 units connected to the same Amp and the sonic differences between those units, using them as preamps only, blew me away. Until that time I was under the impression that a less expensive receiver being used as a preamp would work great and save money. I had a rude awakening.

I'm no expert on this stuff. I'm just stating what little experience I have had. I can't count the post that used to be on this forum about using a 3801 as a preamp. I rushed out and bought one thinking that would be like having the best of both worlds, instead I got an education on how much the preamp can and does affect the SQ.

Jack

added in edit:

I should add that part of my/our dissapointment was encouraged by the unforgiving Klipsch speakers we use. We love them, but they let you know immediateley if you have a bad match of preamp/amp. Bright and harsh is an understatement. With the right gear, they sound absoluteley fabulous. Dynamic, clear and accurate. With the wrong equipment, they can be lifeless, tireing and painful to listen to.

 

[Mike Veroukis]

There's one other thing people seemed to have missed in this entire thread. This entire thread is based on one or two people's personal experiences. Now, we could have had the exact same debate if someone said the flagship Yamaha is way better then the flagship Denon. The point is, it's all subjective. We all have different receivers/amps at home because we all like different things. If one receiver really did sound better then the other we'd all have it. So I think it's fair to say that some people might prefer a lower model from one brand over the top of the line from another brand. Of course, the opposite is true and we should all understand this, right?

Like Radiohead says; "Whatever makes you happy".

- Mike

 

[Jack F]

So I think it's fair to say that some people might prefer a lower model from one brand over the top of the line from another brand. Of course, the opposite is true and we should all understand this, right?

Exactly.
It would be nice if people would refrain from stating things such as -
Product A completely blows product B in the weeds for half of the price. This is just my opinion though. I never did demo product B in my home. It was too much money for me to afford. So I am just going to say it is so because I feel like it or I think it would be so.
Doesn't stuff like -
I demoed Product A and B side by side in my home. I preferred Product B with my speaker combination due to such and such, (exchange for meaningful reasons/observations). Your mileage may vary though.
serve future readers better.
Jack