Film Noir - LIST (2 Viewers)

[John Hodson]

I've thought.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

 

[rich_d]

Richard,

Well, first of all, if we cast a hard eye on all films with script changes during or post production that would be the majority of films.

You seem to be inferring that the writers struggled. Most writers stuggle, it really is the result that matters. The dialogue of Casablanca is terrific. The ending (you've baited us again about after no takers) is not just some tacked on result. The clever banter between Renault and Rick is constant throughout the film, thus the end merely builds on something with a solid foundation.

Whether it works for someone is one thing, but building a case that it was some sort of hack ending ... I don't think is on solid footing.

 

[Richard--W]

rich d,

You mis-understand. I'm used to working out dialogue with actors and writers, and I know how the littlest thing can resonate in the biggest way. I'm not suggesting that Casablanca has a hack ending. Far from it. It has the right ending, the best ending, a great ending. It has the most memorable ending in movie history. I would not change the ending.

All I'm saying is that the last line of dialogue -- "I have the feeling this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship" -- is overkill. The dialogue that precedes this line as they walk off into the fog tells us everything we need to know. There's no need for "I have the feeling this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship." Their testy friendship has already been evoked, so the expository "I have the feeling this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship" explains too much. It explains what's already been evoked. Also, "I have the feeling this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship" takes them in a fey direction that dissipates the noir of Casablanca. It really is an unfortunate line. The line is also out of character for Rick, although I can hear Renault saying it (to Rick). I say keep the ending, cut that last line. I want to sustain that feeling we get as Rick watches the plane take off with the woman he loves going with another man followed by the commiseration with Renault as they walk off into the fog.

I agree with Gary Tooze that Casablanca is a noir except for the ending. Cut that fey last line and 1) the element of noir is sustained in the ending, and 2) the point of Rick and Renault partnering up to fight Nazi's is not lost. That's all I'm saying. Further, in response to Gary Tooze, if Ilsa is not a femme fatale because she has no malicious intent, perhaps you'll agree that she has the same impact as a femme fatale does on the men, emotionally.

Also, I don't understand what you mean by "you've baited us again after no takers." Baited? I haven't baited you. I responded to some points raised in your posts with thoughts of my own that I thought would be of interest.

 

[ted:r]

I may be being picky here, but I hope you meant "should have been cut". Saying a film should have been different, that is your (and anybody's) perogative. But saying that the film should now be altered...oh my, no no no. People get into conniptions over the slightest change to a pre-existing film. I am sure if anyone actually took up your suggestion, you'd have the ungodly wrath of most of the HTF membership on you. Just ask George Lucas.

BTW, not wanting to get into it that much, I must say I disagree heartily with your assessment of the last line. And, though democracy is no way to settle this, I'd hazard I wasn't alone.

 

[Lord Dalek]

Well, lets take into account the fact that you're listing To Have and Have Not as noir. Thats basically the same film as Casablanca, except it has a 100% happy ending (Bogie gets Bacall and successfully escapes from Martinique). Considering that I'm now officially confused.

 

[Lord Dalek]

Oh and in regards to Venetian Blinds...

 

[Richard--W]

I didn't know To Have And Have Not is listed as a noir. I've always considered it a Hemingway adaptation. It's based on a book by Ernest Hemingway written in the 1930s. The film isn't quite the same as the book but it adhered to the Hemingway universe, if you know what I mean. I'm trying to remember the name of the remake; it starred John Garfield. 1950 or thereabouts. That was noir, more noir than To Have And Have Not. If you love To Have And Have Not as much as I do, you'll also appreciate the remake which used the source novel differently and also goes in different directions. Too bad it's not on DVD. I think I taped it off TCM years ago. And while you're at it, check out Islands In the Stream (1978) with George C. Scott, an MGM DVD. Hemingway rewrote the story as a WW2 epic. It was published after he died and Franklyn J. Schaffner (Planet of the Apes, Patton, Papillon) directed it. The noir roots are still deeply imbedded.

 

[rich_d]

It would still leave Renault with saying that he could be duped into providing a letter of transit for Rick and that the 10,000 francs could "pay our expenses."

Thus the end still has a smiling Renault who is suggesting they go off together in some sort of partnership.

Thus even with the last line out, little has changed except the film ending with an awkward silence to Renault's proposal

 

[PatrickMD]

True, but "The Killers" was also a Hemingway adaptation, and that's certainly noir...

 

[Richard--W]

Astute observation.
I just re-watched the ending (chapter 32 on the DVD). I know exactly how to resolve the issue. But you won't like my answer, so I'll leave it alone rather than derail this very interesting thread any further. If you want to discuss the ending to Casablanca any further, start a new thread and I'll join in.

 

[Richard--W]

Yes, The Killers is certainly a noir.
If you guys want to consider To Have And Have Not a noir, that suits me just fine.

The remake of To Have And Have Not alluded to above is The Breaking Point (Warner Brothers, 1950) directed by Michael Curtiz in fine hardboiled style. Listed by Herb Kane in the initial post of this thread. John Garfield lets us know immediately that he owns this version of Harry Morgan, a fishing boat owner in southern California who is so broke he can't afford to feed his wife and daughters. So he agrees to smuggle illegal Mexicans on his boat, but quickly gets in over his head. A young and winsome Patricia Neal plays a blonde femme fatale who never has a chance. Phyllis Thaxter has her best role as the young wife; the scene where she tries to make herself look like Patricia Neal to win back her husband is heartbreaking and must be seen to be believed. Curtiz seems to be making a conscious effort to take his version into directions opposite from To Have And Have Not. Although the location has changed (Cuba in the novel, southern California in the film) Hemingway's story is intact in this overlooked and underestimated film noir.

Hopefully, Warner Brothers will consider The Breaking Point for its next noir box set or perhaps for a Garfield collection.

Not to be confused with the Bob Clark film from 1976.

TCM airs it from time to time.

Anyone else familiar with The Breaking Point?

 

[John Hodson]

Yes; it has a harder edge than Hawks film, and it's atypical Curtiz. Garfield's Morgan is much more of an ambiguous opportunist. Excellent movie.

 

[eifert]

Breaking Point is work finding. A very good movie.

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Check this out: http://unspun.amazon.com/Top-Classic...list/show/4307

Anyone can vote or add to the list. Beware of asses that like to add movies like Die Hard, but overall I think it's a pretty good idea for a site made up of all "lists". Eventually, if more and more people vote I think it will be more accurate.

 

[Ira Siegel]

Hi Richard. I think Ilsa is guilty of nothing. Her relationship developed with Richard when she thought she was a widow. When in the city of Casablanca, regardless of where she was going to end up, she was motivated only by good - she wanted an exit visa for Victor so that he could continue his inspirational work against the Germans. Sure, Richard/Rick was hurt by how his initial relationship with Ilsa turned out, but, hey, even I don't think that the women who stopped dating me were evil. As for the ending of the movie, even if it ended just when the plane took off, the movie would have ended optimististally. And, in my opinion, the movie was optimistic all the way through: The Bulgarian couple make it out, the French realize where their true patriotism should be, and except for Ugarte, all the "good" bad guys (e.g., the pickpocket, Ferrari) come out fine. Heck, even real Germans got some good advice: "there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn't advise you to try to invade." Getting back to Ilsa, she is a wonderful woman who innocently fell in love with 2 different men.

[Edited for spelling on 4-24-07.]

 

[Gary Tooze]

Yes Ira, I would say your analysis of the character is much closer to the truth.

Richard-W did make some interesting points but his failure to respond to direct questions regarding his sweeping statements eventually spoiled his argument.

How is Rick ruined? He didn't lose Ilsa - he let her go. He walks off with his buddy Captain Renault totally escaping a murder rap. He's a survivor continueing on his path of freedom.

Best,
Gary

 

[Gary Tooze]

Anyone keen on Sirk's noir - Sleep My Love - we have reviewed the upcoming Kinowelt DVD HERE. I don't *think* the film is available on DVD anywhere else.

And speaking of Femme Fatales - Sirk has Rita Johnson (Barby) as an exaggerated one - constantly in revealing clothes, dominant, manipulative and aggressive - plus she is behind the nefarious plot.

Best,

 

[Multi-Region]

Warner's Film-Noir Classic Collection, Vol. 4, update:
the double features DVD's:

[url=https://static.hometheaterforum.com/imgrepo/9/96/htf_imgcache_7717.jpeg] [/url]....[url=https://static.hometheaterforum.com/imgrepo/7/77/htf_imgcache_7718.jpeg] [/url]....[url=https://static.hometheaterforum.com/imgrepo/c/c3/htf_imgcache_7719.jpeg] [/url]....[url=https://static.hometheaterforum.com/imgrepo/a/ab/htf_imgcache_7720.jpeg] [/url] ...(tumbnails)

 

[CineKarine]

I have always enjoyed SLEEP MY LOVE. Just a little correction here - Hazel Brooks (looking very much as she did in BODY AND SOUL) is the femme fatale (named Daphne), Rita Johnson is Barby, the friendly, talkative friend of the heroine.

I hope that Claudette Colbert's other lady-in-distress melo, THE SECRET FURY (50) with Robert Ryan as the GOOD guy, makes it to DVD via Warner......

EDIT: Just spotted WOMAN IN THE WINDOW listed for July 7th at MoviesUnlimited....

 

[Gary Tooze]

Of course... thanks CinéKarine!

Best,
Gary

 

[Irina]

Gary, Sleep My Love was released in Spain before the Kinowelt edition:

http://www.dvdgo.com/product~catgid~...p,+My+Love.htm