DV-45A Sub level question (1 Viewer)

[Matthew Anderson]

Still no luck in adjusting the sub level in the 45A. I tried everything from -6dB to +6dB and the sub output still sounds the same to me when playing analog sources like DVD Audio or SACD. I also could not get the sub test tone to play in the player either. Oh well, at least I've got too much bass rather than not enough. I may have something wrong with my player but I doubt it. Probably just operator error.

My other 2 options are:
1. Turn down the sub manually with the volume control in the sub itself(a hassle everytime I want to listen to analog sources)

2. Get an ICBM and so I can lower the crossover to 60Hz or 40Hz and tame the bass that way. Using the 80Hz crossover in the Outlaw 950 for analog sources produces a bit too much bass for my preference.(this option involves more money of course not too mention another set of interconnects)

Thanks to all to helped on this issue.

 

[Brian L]

Sorry again for the confusion.

No need to apologize. Pioneer and all the vendors of universal players need to apologize for giving us such inconsistent BM.

It kind of makes me wonder if there is some sort of commonality between some of these players. Either there is an internal chips set that is the same, or perhaps some software that is sourced from a 3rd party?

If you have a moment, read some of the posts on the Denon 2900 at the AVS forum. It too has low LFE. Reading those posts, it is pretty much dead nuts what we all discussed on the 45A months ago. Lucky for them that the player and Denon receivers have built in compensation. Pioneer will not even admit that their may be an issue.

I can't wait until the 2900 guys get past low LFE and start trying discs like Chesky's 4.0 stuff. I can see it now.....where did my sub go??????

BGL

 

[Brian L]

Using the 80Hz crossover in the Outlaw 950 for analog sources produces a bit too much bass for my preference.(this option involves more money of course not too mention another set of interconnects)

I seem to recall that Kevin C. Brown made some posts about "double bass" in the 950 when using the the AI's. I think it involved the fact that, even if you engaged the crossover in the 950, bass from the mains was not stripped from the mains. It was still sent to the sub, but not taken from the mains; thus "double bass".

Kevin normally posts in the wee hours. Perhaps he can chime in on that subject.

One more question: Does the 950 allow channel level trim of the 6CH inputs (ie: can you tweak the levels of each of the 6CH inputs)?

I assume not, but if so, I would try setting the 45A to "Fixed" output, all speakers large/sub on. You will not be able to engage internal tones with levels at "fixed", but you should be able to run DVD tones and tweak the sub that way.

Somehow, I suspect you have already tried that, but its worth a look.

BGL

 

[Steve_AS]

Still no luck in adjusting the sub level in the 45A. I tried everything from -6dB to +6dB and the sub output still sounds the same to me when playing analog sources like DVD Audio or SACD. I also could not get the sub test tone to play in the player either. Oh well, at least I've got too much bass rather than not enough. I may have something wrong with my player but I doubt it. Probably just operator error.

My other 2 options are:
1. Turn down the sub manually with the volume control in the sub itself(a hassle everytime I want to listen to analog sources)

Or, if your receiver has the option of setting speaker levels for different inputs, adjust the sub level for the 6-channel analog input. You'd only have to do this once (though you might still get a big difference between Dolby DIgital and DVD-A/SACD stuff)

I wonder if your results mean that the speaker level adjustment if the 45A only work on Dolby Digital material? Another thing to add to my test list. I may have even noted this before; I vaguely recall this being the case.

 

[Steve_AS]

No need to apologize. Pioneer and all the vendors of universal players need to apologize for giving us such inconsistent BM.

Thanks. It's a bit embarrassing; the data I wrote up were correct -- but for some reason I simply didn't see the correct pattern of results in them. Soon I'm going to construct a website with all my findings on the DV-45a, hopefully I'll have worked everything out. I need to determine which controls actually affect which formats, and also how bass is managed in the *other* direction -- e.g., when and how it is redirected to mains when sub is set to 'off'.

 

[Matthew Anderson]

As far as I know I can't adjust the levels of the 6 channel inputs in the 950 preamp itself. The channel level settings of the 950 are for digital sources only. Correct me if my wrong though.

 

[Steve_AS]

As far as I know I can't adjust the levels of the 6 channel inputs in the 950 preamp itself. The channel level settings of the 950 are for digital sources only. Correct me if my wrong though.

I can adjust levels of the 6 channel inputd on my Harman Kardon AVR 520 receiver -- don;t know how common that function is, nor whether my receiver is converting signals to digital to do it.

Looking at the 950 manual online, I see it does have a 'Channel Calibration' function and 'Channel trim',but I don't know if they apply to the 6-channel analog input.

 

[Lewis Besze]

As far as I know I can't adjust the levels of the 6 channel inputs in the 950 preamp itself. The channel level settings of the 950 are for digital sources only. Correct me if my wrong though.

All adjustment on individual channel calibration is available on all inputs,but it's global. If you change it on the 6ch input you changed it the DVD digital input as well for instance.

 

[Matthew Anderson]

Thanks Lewis for the additional input.

 

[Steve_AS]

I don't own any Chesky disc,but so far it didn't miss a beat literally!

The deal with the Chesky disc is that it has a bass management test (track 34) which consists, as far as I can tell, of a 60 Hz tone, sent though the .1 channel *I think* (see below). You are instructed to set your subwoofer to 'off' in the player menu. If you still hear the tone from your sub when you play the test track, then CHesky claims that your player doesn't do bass management.

I've found this to be an oversimplification. First, you probably want to make sure your speakers are set to LARGE as well (in the 45A this happens automatically when sub is set to OFF). Even then, though, my system fails test #34 when the source is Chesky's DVD-A 5.1 test #34 (but passes it when source is its DD 5.1 version). Yet the DV-45a certaintly *can* extract and sum DVD-A bass from small mains and surrounds , and send it to the sub : that too is bass management, and it's the kind that's crucial for the average HT setup , where restricted-frequency mains/surrounds are the rule.

As to why it fails test #34 with DVD-A 5.1, I haven't quite figured that out yet. When I perform the equivalent test with a 'standard' 5.1 DVD-A disc -- e.g., Steely Dan's Two Against Nature -- turning the sub OFF in the 45a eliminates the sub output. So I wonder exactly what test #34 is really doing? I also still need to determine if turning the sub OFF actually causes redirection of .1 channel sub tones to other speakers, with the Steely Dan disc.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

This became most bothersome when switching between digital inputs decoding DD/DTS and 6CH analog input for listening to DVD-A / SACD due to the inherent level differences of the formats.

Each time I listened to the latter, I had to readjust the subwoofer output to achieve proper levels to compensate for the lower subwoofer level of DVD Audio inherent in many of today’s DVD-A players.

Even the author in this case noted the difference in LFE between DD/DTS and DVD-A/SACD. It's due to the inherent 10 dB boost applied during DD/DTS decoding. Lewis doesn't have this in his system. But a lot of people do.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Lewis doesn't have this in his system. But a lot of people do.

It's not your system,it's your [mis]understanding of it!

 

[Matthew Anderson]

Well I was finally able to lower the bass when playing analog sources through the 6 channel outputs on my 45A. Lewis stated the level settings in the 950 control everything so decided to see if the bass level would go down in my sub when I adjusted with the 950 and sure enough it did. Thanks to all again for your help. By the way, Dark Side of the Moon sounds really fantastic on my system when playing the SACD.

 

[Brian L]

Bingo! it is inherent,Dolby and DTS gets a 10db boost,so those tracks on DVD-A are 10db too hot unless it's corrected in the Pre/Pro[it it has LFE pad],so in comparison the Hi-Rez track sounds less bassy,but in fact that is the correct one.

Lewis, here is a general observation that I would like to share. Note that the set-up in question is a 45A/ICBM connected through a receiver with a 6CH input (It does have level controls on the 6CH input). All speakers large/sub on, levels in the 45A fixed.

I do concur that the LFE/Sub channel is down on this and most other universals, at least when compared to other outboard DD/DTS decoders. It was down for sure in my rig when the 45A was installed in place of a Sony DD box.

But consider the following:

My preferred calibration disc is the Chesky Ultimate DVD. It has the same set of tones in DVD-A and DD. I ran the DVD-A tones, and got all channels + sub to 85 dB. For shits and giggles, I then selected the DD tones. I was expecting the sub/LFE to be low, assuming everyone's assumption that the issue relates to the lack of +10 boost for DD/DTS sources.

But it wasn't! While I did see that the overall levels with the DD tones were down by about 3dB relative to the DVD-A tones, the channels balances were pretty close (maybe a dB up or down channel to channel), but the Sub/LFE was right where it needed to be relative to the other channels.

So what am I missing?

Does the test DVD compensate with incorrect levels for DD stuff (already +10)? Is the player actually getting it right between the two formats, but with an overall sub/LFE channel that is down?

FWIW, with real music, I would say that some of the DVD-A and SACD tracks do sound like the sub channel is hot, although that is not something that can be easily quantified.

If I play Hotel California (title cut) the kick drum is quite prominent (not so much that I want to turn it down, but its pretty strong).

The Telarc Tribute to Weather Report DVD-A is actually so hot that I reduce the LFE, but in that case, the liner notes actually say to listen without the LFE is using a bass managed set-up (this suggests that they have doubled the bass from the main channels and the sub/LFE.

Bowie's Heathen is also known for its "in your face" bass.

But what does it mean? My test tones tell me I am dead nuts across all channels, but are they lying to me? I am normally fine with the levels I have for all DTS and DD stuff, maybe even bumping the sub up a dB or two. With DVD-A and SACD, I either leave it alone or REDUCE it a few clicks.

BGL

 

[Khaled_H]

Hi,

I have a question regarding using 45A with 950. As I gathered from Lewis' post, you can use CH Trim to adjust the levels for the sub. Does this adjustment stays for all inputs? In other words, when I switch from 6CH analog input to COAX for DD/DTS decoding in 950 it will be affected by the Trim setting. In that case how do you have calibrated setup for both analog input and DD/DTS decoding inside 950?

 

[Lewis Besze]

The Telarc Tribute to Weather Report DVD-A is actually so hot that I reduce the LFE, but in that case, the liner notes actually say to listen without the LFE is using a bass managed set-up (this suggests that they have doubled the bass from the main channels and the sub/LFE.

Yes it's a bassy disc no doubt.
On that same disc there are DVD-A test tones,would you do me a favour,and run those with your current settings,and tell me what you got?
I'm interested of your results.
Thanks!

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Interesting. I no longer have the 950, but I assumed that my current MC-8 operated the same way. I plan to do some testing over the weekend.

Incidentally, I never did compare the DD and DVD-A tracks on the Chesky disc. Just Avia digitally to my pre/pro, and Chesky DVD-A from the analog outputs of my player. But even if I remember back to when I originally calibrated the 950 with the 47ai, with Avia and *all* (sub included) test tones balanced to within +/- 1 or 2 of 0, I could not get the Chesky sub output from the player loud enough. That's why I adjusted the sub's volume knob up until I got about -5 on the pre/pro for the sub, which then when I adjusted the 47ai's sub output to about +5 or 6, bingo, Avia DD and Checky DVD-A were all balanced. I guess one more comparison is Avia DD to Chesky DD.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Wow Kevin,Congrats on the Lexicon!
How do you like it?
How's that Logic 7 treating you?

 

[Brian L]

It seems that Chesky compensated for that -10db on the DVD-A portion of the test so you got the same results with it.Which makes one wonder why we need different test tones in the first place?You got the same results didn't you?

Well, that is a good question, isn't it?

I was pretty surprised going from the DVD-A tones to the DD tones, and was expecting there to be a big difference in sub/LFE, but they were OK.

If the theory of a missing +10 dB in the player (and most other universals for that matter) is correct, then the DD tones on the Chesky disc would be recorded +10 hot (as you speculate), but then calibrating to those references would produce varying results when using actual movies and music.

DD movies would always be +10 too hot (sub/LFE) when played back, assuming that they are mixed 10 dB down and further assuming the player will apply the +10. That is not the case at all. Movies in DTS or DD are perfect in my rig. I may bump the sub +/- a few dB to suit my tastes, but thats not the same thing as being 10 dB hot or low.

DVD-A and SACD would be a crap shoot, though. And maybe they are. As I said, to my ear, Telarc's Weather Report is WAY TOO HOT, Hotel California sounds hot (at least on the title track) but not quite so hot that I want to turn it down. Yes Fragile sounds about right. ANATO sounds right. Bowie's Heathen sounds a bit hot but not too hot. The Police EBYT MC SACD compilation sounds about right.

Its somewhat all over the map depending on the program source.

I have not tested with the Telarc DVD-A tones as you asked. Last night, my family and I did something totally ridiculous; we actually sat down and watched a movie. You know, it was enjoyable, but no where near as much fun as obsessing over test tones and equipment calibration

I will try to test with the Telarc tones this weekend.

Kevin, if you have a chance, I would be very curious to hear what you get if you compare the Chesky DD and DVD-A tones. Guess I need to get some SACD tones to further muddy the water!

BGL

 

[Lewis Besze]

DVD-A and SACD would be a crap shoot, though. And maybe they are. As I said, to my ear, Telarc's Weather Report is WAY TOO HOT, Hotel California sounds hot (at least on the title track) but not quite so hot that I want to turn it down. Yes Fragile sounds about right. ANATO sounds right. Bowie's Heathen sounds a bit hot but not too hot. The Police EBYT MC SACD compilation sounds about right.

That's because there is no standard as how to record bass or utilize the LFE channel.BTW you find the same thing on CDs too, no 2 cd's have the same exact bass contents right?
To be honest I don't think that MC music should use LFE at all,it don't need it since it's HI-rez,unlike Dolby which has very limited band with,and needed an extra channel to relieve the mains,and improve dynamic range.
The fact remains though a full featured BM is still mandatory at the users end,at least as "full" as the current receivers have now.