Direct from Hollywood: Widescreen DVD releases under the gun! Here's the Answer! (1 Viewer)

[DaViD Boulet]

I used to hate black bars like everyone else (j6p). Then one day I saw an MGM blurb that extolled the virtues of widescreen...I think it was on A&E. It was just a few seconds long...and it showed a P/S image of Ben Hur the filled the screen...then it shrank to a small size in the TV frame (with black on top/bottom/and sides)...then the image widened before my very eyes to reach the L/R of the TV screen and revealed the missing picture information that had been cropped off.
From that day on I was a WS believer and started preaching to other HT buffs who, like my self, had not ever been educated as to what those dumb black bars are all about.
I agree with Ron. If studios would put a 20 second short at the beginning of each WS DVD release showing what is gained by WS I can promise you that most j6ps would start to side with the HT community.
Take a film like Phantom Menace that they all want to see and show them what they'd be missing in P/S.
I can't imagine why the studios wouldn't adopt this easy, cheap, and effective way to educate their consumer base.
-dave

 

[Norm Strong]

My very first recommendation is to stop calling people that prefer P&S "ignorant". This will get you nowhere--quickly. Yes, it is possible to both understand the nature of the issue and the loss involved with either choice, and STILL prefer P&S. It's not an issue resolved by education.
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Norm Strong ([email protected])

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Or have I missed something? Just because you're not a driving enthusiast doesn't mean driving doesn't matter for someone else.

Yeah, you did miss something - my point that the two actitivies are inherently different.
If any folks who love driving thought I slammed their activity, I apologize - that wasn't my intention. I don't presume to judge what someone should or shouldn't enjoy.
However, the fact remains that the analogy bites. When I drive my car with an automatic transmission to work, I get there all the way, and I also make it home again the whole distance. I cover the exact same ground as someone with a stick shift. They may do so in more style than I, but we both accomplish the same journeys.
If this analogy was about the QUALITY of images, then the instance might make sense. One could state that the stick driving experience equals DVD's picture while automatic is VHS. I'd gladly go along with that.
But otherwise it remains a terrible comparison. P&S equals a de facto form of censorship; it eliminates a substantial portion of the original material. The stick vs. automatic argument is the same as saying that a Mercedes = OAR while a Chevette = P&S, which isn't accurate either...
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Colin Jacobson
DVD Movie Guide
www.dvdmg.com

 

[Keith_R]

I've thought about this now ever since I got into DVD and HT last X-Mas. The obvious solution it seems to me is a dual sided disc with both WS and P&S versions on it, this has a problem though as most consumers would not have the sense to look on the second side of the disc to find the P&S version; this method also cuts down on space and bitrate for the disc.
The second solution that I see is a Widescreen vs. P&S promo which would/could be a good idea except that even if J6P sees this the average person doesn't care as has been proven before. I know people that know the difference but they don't care

and this will nevever change no matter how much you instill it in them.
The studios could just do a P&S version but it would never work because we'd hound them

and eventually everything here in the US will be in WS and I think the studios realize that P&S will not fly on a WS set, this all leads me to my next suggestion: we have to have more WS support from the manufacturers and the broadcasters. The more WS sets we have in both tube and RP the more the market will eventually move toward WS and HD. The more shows in WS the more enjoyment and use that new WS set will get. We need WS sets in all sizes and we need more WS broadcasting support.
All of this leads up to my proposal. What if the studios were to release a 3 disc set kind of deal. The first disc has the WS version and the second disc has a P&S version. The third disc would contain all the extras. Therefore with this solution the studios could maintain a good bitrate while preserving sound and extras. I don't know how much this would cost but it can't be to much more than releasing two versions of the movie (P&S and WS.)Universal pulls this all the time with their CE's and UE's.
I'd also like to point out, whatever happened to the "P&S on the Fly" function that DVD was touted has having, why can't they do that? they could include a directions in the DVD case or on the DVD itself to let Joe know how to activate this feature.
I think this goes down as the longest post I've made on HTF but OAR is important this is something that must be dealt with.
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-Keith-
[Edited last by Keith_R on October 12, 2001 at 06:06 PM]

 

[Matt Wallace]

Enough with the car analogy!!! Back to the subject at hand, anyone? It's a wonder more studios don't think we're petty and that our obsessions are trivial!
The real problem here is that we are beating a dead horse here. Our dialog with each other can only be so productive. What we really need is to find ways to dialog with Retailers and Studios and work on some common ground. A chat to deal with just that one subject on the forum would be a step in the right direction. How about a petition, much like the Star Wars petition on the 'bits, and send it to several retailers ? We need to start making these sort of plans/moves to get anywhere credible.
The one thing that we have going for us that J6P doesn't is an initiative beyond casual bitching to local sales clerks and also that we have the studios' ear and attention. Those two things are pretty powerful and have proven useful in the past. The fact that they are telling us is a hidden call for help, IMHO, that we should rise to.
Matt
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"And I say I'm dead, and I move"....

 

[george kaplan]

My very first recommendation is to stop calling people that prefer P&S "ignorant". This will get you nowhere--quickly. Yes, it is possible to both understand the nature of the issue and the loss involved with either choice, and STILL prefer P&S. It's not an issue resolved by education.

Yes it is possible to understand the issue and still prefer p&s. However, I would argue that most of the people who don't like the black bars, are not ones who understand the issue and prefer pan & scan anyway, but rather are ones who do not understand the issue.
I've explained this to dozens of people, all of whom have become OAR advocates (admittedly not as passionately as myself), except for two people who understand and still prefer p&s.
So, yes I think most of these people are ignorant, and need to be educated. And I for one will continue to do so.
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13-time NBA world champion Lakers: 1949, 1950, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1972, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2001

 

[David Ki]

"So, yes I think most of these people are ignorant, and need to be educated. And I for one will continue to do so."
Instead of ignorant, how about uneducated. Your voice will be heard a lot more.
I didn't have time to read all the replies, so I don't know if this has been posted.
TCM (Turner Classic Movies channel) occationally shows a explaination in between movies as to why they show all those old Black and White movies in wide screen only when available. They show some very good examples with how ugly the crop is and how much of the picture you miss. I think Ron Howard was one of the directors explaining why. They could include a program like this on DVDs.
[Edited last by David Ki on October 12, 2001 at 08:55 PM]

 

[Steve Owen]

Matt, I apologize for not letting this analogy drop, but I simply have to respond to Colin...
Colin, your reply regarding car enthusiasts does show that you don't "get it", nor do you want to "get it". That's fine actually because it points out the HUGE problem in bringing the issue of OAR to someone who's just not a movie enthusiast (I won't call them J6P any more than I would call you that in this instance... they're just "non enthusiasts").
A non-enthusiast just doesn't care whether a movie is widescreen or pan and scan, and since he doesn't care, he'll take the choice that is (to him) the one that gives him the most perceived value... the one that fills his screen. It's just "entertainment" to him, not art. Just as a car is just "transportation" to you.
You speak very factually to your point. "With cars, the point is to get from point A to point B", "...cars exist as tools", and "Cars are INTENDED to get people where they need to be". To me a car is a synergy between man, machine, and road. I can't imagine having a truly enjoyable driving experience in an automatic. Sometimes I drive to get from point A to point B, but very often I drive just to drive. Not as a tool. Not as a means to an end. But as an experience.
The more I think about it, the more relevant the analogy is (sorry again Matt). Colin, your comments have really brought into focus for me the difficulty in convincing a non-enthusiast about OAR. It's something we DVD/movie fans think is absolutely obvious. But to someone else, it's exactly like your indifference to the driving experience.
-Steve

 

[Brian Harnish]

(sarcasm)
I would LOVE to be behind the customer service desk @ Wal-Mart. (/sarcasm) When someone returns a DVD because of the black bars, I'd simply say "Sorry, but I can't return it. It's not defective. Here's why..." then I'd educate them about widescreen.
Problem solved. HEY!!!! We could do this thing like Fight Club...get our widescreen enthusiasts behind the Customer Service Desk at every Wal-Mart possible and curtail returns of DVDs because of such people.
First rule of Widescreen Club IS...you do NOT TALK ABOUT WIDESCREEN CLUB.
The second rule of Widescreen club IS...you DO NOT TALK about WIDESCREEN CLUB!!!
Third rule of Widescreen club is...you must educate every passerby complaining about the "Ugly black bars". No sugar-coating. Just tell it like it is.
Fourth rule of Widescreen Club is...you must be a Wal*Mart employee behind the Customer Service Desk.
Fifth Rule of Widescreen Club...hit every person that doesn't immediately come to an epiphany about widescreen. Continue to do this until they do.

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- Brian
My DVD Collection
Want Sliders on DVD? Then please SIGN the petition!

 

[Lars Vermundsberget]

I apologize too for not letting the car analogy drop, but I'd simply like to say how much I agree with Steve here.
I think the analogy is even better now than the first time I read/thought about it. Watching a movie and driving a car don't have to be THAT "inherently different". Watching a P&S version of a movie WILL bring you from the beginning to the end just like any car will take you from "A to B". A car can be seen as a means of transportation and a movie as entertainment, and rightfully so, but both can be more than that. In both cases one might have to be just a little bit of an enthusiast to enjoy the added experience along the way.
All that said, I think the reasons for demanding P&S are a LOT worse than the reasons for driving automatic...

 

[Mike Knapp]

If the "black bar haters" are unaware of the fact that they are missing much of the movie then ignorance is the correct term to be used. It is not a derogetory term and is only considered to be one by those ignorant of its meaning. I think everyone here knows full well that being called ignorant is not insulting...at least I hope we all do. I am ignorant of many things, and to deny such would make me pompous. Of the two, I much prefer being ignorant.
Once informed of the situation and the loss of image when watching a pan and scan version, the individual that still prefers P&S is no longer ignorant. They are now exhibiting a lack of respect for the art of the film. Thats OK too, no one says everyone must resoect the artists intention, but make no mistake...watching in pan and scan while aware of what it does is dis-respectful to all those involved in the crafting of the film. Again, this is a personal choice, but not one to be made lightly in my opinion.
Perhaps the "education" of people is not the answer. Maybe we need to stress the "respect" issue some more. Almost everyone wants something they have done to be respected, if this is true why would they not recriprocate? Perhaps this is yet another angle for us to use in concert with the "loss of image" argument.
Mike

 

[Ryan Spaight]

Sorry, Matt...

but cars exist as tools, just like lawnmowers, rakes and shovels

Them's fightin' words around some parts.
In fact, people who espouse such views are known in certain circles as Joe Six-Pack (or, more accurately, as a Consumer Reports subscriber).
Any argument between you and myself on the merits of various automobile transmissions is futile, as we're coming from two widely divergent points of view. Which is precisely my point.
We're all Joe in one way or another. Me, I'm a food and drink Joe. People go on and on about the merits of Thai cuisine, or fine French food, or great wine, or whatever. Shrug. Gimme a burger, fries and a Coke and I'm a happy guy. Some view that as the depth of ignorance and crudity. So be it. But at least I don't like P&S.
Ryan

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Could you two PLEASE knock it off about the car crap?
Glenn

 

[george kaplan]

Instead of ignorant, how about uneducated. Your voice will be heard a lot more.

I was going to respond to this, but Mike Knapp said it well. Ignorant means uneducated, not stupid.
Calling someone who doesn't understand p&s ignorant is no more an insult than calling Mike an elitist bastard.
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13-time NBA world champion Lakers: 1949, 1950, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1972, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2001

 

[John_Johnson]

I have found that even when shown the difference between WS and P&S, many people still prefer the P&S. They say they don't care that they are missing some of the picture. It is a real problem. Originally, you may remember the promise that DVD would have built-in P&S from the WS image. That did not work out, but you can still just use the zoom feature to bring the image up to full screen, although it is not panned. Releasing movies on DVD is an archival procedure. I cannot see how selling them only as P&S archives any films. At some point, they would still be under pressure to release it in the original theater aspect ratio. Once WS TVs are mainstream, there will be no more problem, and I think the studios have to plan for that future, rather than plan for now, with the outdated 4:3 TV format that will soon be obsolete.
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[Jack Briggs]

One ... two ... three ... four
If it ain't OAR, it don't get my dollar.
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[Edited last by Jack Briggs on October 13, 2001 at 12:42 PM]

 

[Keith Paynter]

My new signature is my take on the whole issue...
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[David Lambert]

Keith Wins! Best idea yet!
Good one....
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DAVE/Memphis

MORE TV ON DVD, PLEASE!

 

[AllenD]

dbl
[Edited last by AllenD on October 13, 2001 at 07:07 PM]

 

[AllenD]

quote: A 20-second or more promotional spot to be
placed in front of EVERY DVD that gets manufactured. This spot will show a Pan & Scan picture being transformed to Widescreen. It will clearly show information being added to the sides while a voice-over explains the necessity for showing the following film in its original aspect ratio.
[/quote]
It worked on me back in the early 90s. I rented a movie, Wolf I think, and it had a widescreen advocacy ad before the movie. Ever since then I've always looked for widescreen only VHS for purchase. (Didn't get into LD.) Then DVD came along and answered my AOR prayers!
[Edited last by AllenD on October 13, 2001 at 07:09 PM]