Brick&Mortar experience - minor rant! (1 Viewer)

[Lewis Besze]

David,
I think sharing a bad experience isn't the same as making a blanket statement.Yes there are good knowledgable sales people out there,who I bought products from,but they were also ready to "deal".Some manufactureres won't let the dealer to give any discount at all,and that's fine as long as they understand that we the consumer also have a right to buy something else or to pay the full price.

If everyone had to work as a salesman or waiter for one day, there would be a greater respect for what these people do

Maybe so but no one force them to do that job either.This field became more competitive,because of the internet,and it is tougher to stay in business.Consumer also have more knowledge about products,simply because the wealth of information on the web today like this board.
It's much tougher to sell a $10k analog preamp these days, when you can get a fully souped up Pre/Pro for $3k with all the latest "bells".And for stores that sells the same mid-fi brands as the internet stores is even tougher.That segment of the market is really driven by the bottom line,and people won't pay for the extra "privilidge" to demo the produts at the store,when they can do it at home,with all the 30 days return policies out there. Is it " for the "wrong" for the consumer to try to keep more of what they earned? No!
However the industry should weed out the "bad aples" first,and stop blaming the consumers,and bith about them,it won't generate any sales,period.Calling me a " internet/brand fanboy" or "idiotic" is hardly the way to go about it IMO.
It's 2003 the same old marketing/selling machine,what was good 10 years ago won't do too well anymore.
Get with the program.

 

[Jeff D.]

OK Lewis, you need to grow up and educate yourself a bit before trying to respond intelligently.

Get with the program.

Finally, I will end with a classic Lewis comment. No, YOU get with the program. Consistently purchasing online is sending your money to other communities. These internet companies do not pay taxes, which pay for the upkeep of your area (unless your fortunate enough to live right by them). Therefore your local economy will continue to go downhill as more and more businesses are forced to shut down because they cannot compete because you are too cheap to support your local community.

You can whine all you want, say its not your fault (it is), and say people need to move with the times. However you like to justify it to yourself, YOU and people like you are responsible.

 

[David Judah]

It's 2003 the same old marketing/selling machine,what was good 10 years ago won't do too well anymore.

I agree with you and the smart retailers have responded by price matching, better delivery and installation, help after the sale etc... The lowest price isn't always the best value--it depends on the situation and the consumer's needs. Remember, sometimes if a deal is too good to be true...well, you know. Also, as someone else mentioned, we don't often hear about the internet horror stories, but we all know they are there--that model isn't perfect either. You don't really care until it happens to you.

DJ

 

[Jeff D.]

The lowest price isn't always the best value--it depends on the situation and the consumer's needs.

The most intelligent thing I've read in this post - or on this forum - yet.

Value is not defined by dollars. If you find a subwoofer that is a killer deal (apparently) at $200, it is only a deal if the subwoofer is what you need. What if it is way too small for your room and cannot perform to the levels you expect? It might be 50% less than another model, but that model might be exactly what you need in terms of size and performance. So which is better?

Obviously the sub for more money. Doesn't matter how many dollars you take off the price tag, if the product won't work for the consumer, then it is of no value. B&Ms, or at least good B&Ms, have the advantage of a wide variety of products which they have listened to and applied to real-world use, and can advise the customer in ways that spec sheets never can.

 

[Lewis Besze]

But the world does not revolve around you (thank God, I might add).

Are these the intelligent comments I should live up to?
Then by your elevated standards I willfuly remain at my level of education and intelligence.
Thank HTF for the ignore list!

 

[Adil M]

Well, what do you think folks?
I think Jeff has brought up some excellent points on how the enthusiasts (us) are hurting our own hobby.
I've never met a dealer not willing to deal in some manner or other.
If one in the future did not, I'd probably wonder what was wrong with him or even ME...

 

[Topher]

We have a few B&M's here in Roanoke and 1 of them is extremely upscale and like Bill said try walking in there after work and you will get nothing but a snooty attitude... luckily the other store is excellent! Everytime I have been in there I have had nothing but great experiences. They were changing their listening room around and offered to sell me an EXCELLENT audio rack for %50 of sticker, because it was used. I was also able to sit down with the owner/salesman for a good 30min to demo receivers and speakers. He offered price reductions on just about everything and on top of that offered the demo products for even less than that. I can understand where people feel burned by bad experiences, but good experiences like I have will keep me a loyal customer.

I think internet shopping HAS hurt the industry and caused more and more peoples expectation of price/service to become skewed. 10yrs ago we would have never EXPECTED to get a $1500 receiver for $500 brand new with in free in home trials and service. Now that you CAN find that type of price cut online, people expect the B&M's to be able to keep up. Just not possible.

IMO, I would pay a little more for the confidence of being able to at least look at something before I purchased it, I haven't thrown my trust into the internet sales juggernaut yet, and doubt I ever will on such expensive purchases. DVD's, cables, etc... possibly... but I still don't like waiting for shipping and I really don't like it when something is broken/mistreated in shipping. I would rather pick it up in person and take it home, plus if something goes wrong in the future it is much easier to drive it back to the B&M than to pack it up and have to wait weeks to get it back.

When you look at what the B&M's have on their side (some of them, trust me I sympathise with those of you who don't have a good one in your area) and compare it to what the internet sites have on their side... it makes it an obvious choice of price v. peice of mind.

Of course, price brings a lot of people piece of mind!

The worst thing the internet has done to this industry is change peoples conceptions. Some people will spend all day in a B&M trying out equipment, then go straight to the internet and purchase it online. Sometimes only saving a little bit of money after shipping is added to the sale (obviously sometimes more than a little).

I guess I am a B&M guy, but if I had no local stores worth frequenting... I might go the way of the net, but I really doubt it. I would probably just drive further!

 

[Jerome Grate]

A couple of weeks ago, there was a post here in reference to the ignorance and arrogance of sales help in a B&M store and I'll make the same comment here with this addition, depending on how much you will spend can be a contributing factor in the response that you get. If you're spending some large some of money that would require, installation, tweaking and calibration, your responses would obviously be different. Years ago customer service was golden if you spent a dollar or ten thousand dollars, in this field this is no longer the case.

We have to become the educated consumer and no longer expect these salesman to be as helpful as we want them to be. Home Theater can't be compared to let's say for example a washer and dryer. There are so many parameters in HT starting from room size to t.v. size, volume to how low a sub woofer can go. I'm pretty sure if the field paid a person enough to be knowledgeable he/she would be and therefore provide the service we so eagerly seek. But until then, we have to bear the burden for our own protection and not rely on incompetent, rude or arrogant sales staff. Use them for the sole purpose of listening, price comparison and possibly available warranties, that's it. The more you know the less you need them and I think the less you'll get aggravated over someone or some B&M's incompetence.

 

[BrianAe]

The biggest danger that is caused by losing a B&M presence for any hobby is a drop in participation. As an avid windsurfer I can tell you that mail order shops killed the sport by closing down all the B&M who would do free clinics and lessons to get people into it. For HT, we don't have that worry. I think sites such as this and low end B&M such as Best Buy will keep interest high.

I think the comment about how all the B&M shops are moving to high end HT installation and design is very valid and relevant. For example, I wanted to hear the new Energy Veritas line but when I went to the Energy website to find a dealer, I discover that all 3 dealers in the Chicago area are really custom install places and probably don't have large demo setups and would probably be annoyed by someone just coming in to sample the goods.

 

[Jeff D.]

the enthusiasts (us) are hurting our own hobby.

Absolutely. And this can be taken out of the online vs B&M argument for a moment. The consumer has come to demand rock-bottom prices, above all else. That is why we now see disposable DVD players at drug stores. Even the Toshiba product, which we sell in the store I work at, has gone downhill tremendously in terms of build quality. Why is this? Because consumers expect to pay next to nothing for these products. They cannot be convinced (or most of them, anyway), that there is value is spending more. You can get a machine that will not only provide better performance, but is serviceable and probably will, in the long run, offer better value for the dollar spent.

There is nothing inherently wrong with online purhases. The internet has opened the world to us. We can now get things that were never available to us before - and that is what it should be used for. If there is no local source for a product, then there is no home in ordering it from abroad.

The problem is that people, looking for the lowest price, flock to the internet, because it is full of great 'deals'. They purchase on the internet, thinking they are doing little harm. But everybody starts doing this and the local stores that sell the same product start to suffer. They cannot compete, because they need to pay their staff. So the staff get cut, and cheaper staff are brought in. Then, once the internet fanboy goes to the store, he wonders why the service is so bad. It is because the store has had no choice, they have had to cut back. Now of course, the more resilient stores find ways to stay alive, but it is difficult.

And make no mistake, it is internet shoppers that hurt these stores, and the people that run them, and the communities that they reside in. The internet fanboys will sugarcoat their actions, or choose to ignore those who tell them otherwise (a la Lewis). But this is a reality. And much of the problem is with the consumer and his/her mentality. Mark-ups on electronics are not as high as these people would have you believe (an area, of many, where education is needed).

 

[Bill Polley]

And Lewis, above all, remember that Jeff is the absolute authority on your behavior. Do exactly as he says and don't even think about it.

The pushy, condescending attitude employed by Jeff is exactly the same as the sales people in the local B&Ms by me.

I am positive that my Axioms SOUND better than my Klipschs, my EPIs, my Advents, my Altecs, or my Pinnacles do. I also like their sound much better than my friends Paradigms. My Outlaw 950 is every bit as good as the Rotel that I originally was looking to buy and is a step up from the NAD it replaced.

My SVS does everything that the B&M brands do, and does it better than all of them in its price range. But what do I know...I can only read and quote specs and can't possibly hear the difference between my SVS and a similarly priced Velodyne or the difference between my Axioms and the Paradigms (although they also sound very good, just different).

I'm sure all the Rocket and Ascend owners are tone deaf also, because everyone knows that you can't get good sound or good service on the net...just cheap prices! If a mid to high end A/V specialty business plan is based on internet sales, its products must be junk that no self-respecting B&M would ever even consider being associated with.

 

[Jeff D.]

Is it not possible to get people to actually THINK about this? I didn't realize it was condescending to suggest that people just educate themselves.

As for you enjoying the system you have Bill...that's fine. NEVER will you find in any of my posts trashing the products sold on the internet. Good salespeople don't have to trash other products - the products they sell will speak for themselves.

What you WILL find is my correct assertion that B&Ms are the only place to audition components, barring homes of friends with systems of course.

Once again, you read between the lines and fill my mouth with words. Take the time again, reread what I posted. Oh, and just so you can't attack me again I will ask nicely: please.

 

[Bill Polley]

"Um, hello...ever heard of SOUND quality?? Of course not, if you buy everything on the internet."

Yup...I "read between the lines and filled your mouth with words"

 

[DanaA]

The best way to audition is in your listening space, inside your home, with your other equipment. Many, if not most, internet companies offer the consumer this opportunity. Yes, you risk having to pay return shipping, but the risk/reward is one which every potential buyer must make. The reward is in getting a great product for considerably less than one might have to pay at a brick and morter type store.

 

[Jeff D.]

Bill:

If you purchase your entire system online, without ever auditioning the pieces, then sound quality is not a factor in your buying decision, because you cannot listen to products over the internet. Its very simple.

Dana:

The reward is in getting a great product for considerably less than one might have to pay at a brick and morter type store.

And until you go into a B&M store, you have no idea what they have to offer. Yes, you might get a great product on the internet, but you might get a BETTER product at a B&M - and you will be putting your money back into your community at the same time. Everyone wins.

I have yet to see any logical arguments against people frequenting B&Ms, or even just visiting them.

 

[Paul Fa]

Great, my first post that goes over two pages and 50% of it is filled with sweeping generalizations, finger-pointing and mild name-calling - boy am I proud of this contribution to greater understanding!

Let's try an example of how internet and B&M sales worked together for me to get a great deal on a car. I did a ton of research on Edmunds.com CarFax.com etc that provided me with 10 times the information I could have gotten from any other source regarding the cars I was looking at. I went to my local dealer to test drive and inquire about pricing and trade-in. Again since I live in an area with a large population of the newly mega-wealthy, the prices were higher and the cars only came maxed out with eye candy etc. I didn't need or want. The dealer wasn't very interested in finding the model with the features I was interested and getting it brought in (from dealers I could drive four hours to to get a lower price). With this "service" experience fresh in mind, I went home, ordered the car online through CarsDirect where I had nothing but exceptional help and support and got the car delivered to a dealer about a half-hour away. That dealer got the prep $'s etc. because my local dealers wouldn't/couldn't be bothered to set up a relationship with CarsDirect which would have allowed them to get the best of both worlds - walk-in sales and internet sales! I now get the car serviced at the dealer who helped me, not the locals that wouldn't!

Perhaps if this model was explored by B&M HTS stores they would get the best of both and rather than rejecting customers with different ways of shopping would embrace the way the world is today (strategically engage a new paradigm in Corpor-speak) instead of only going after the rich customers and alienating the rest! Either way, it would mean more sales for them and more loyal, happy customers, which Jeff, would keep them in business longer! It doesn't need to be a Zero-Sum-Game!

 

[JackS]

Paul- All purchases on-line or off do carry a small risk when dealing with reputable dealers. "Satisfaction guaranteed" does not mean a lemon could not possibly be purchased when dealing with anyone. MY advise is find a deal you like and a company on/off line your comfortable with. Assuming the product you receive is in perfect working condition, ask all questions pertaining to your new accuisition to the many knowledgable owners of the same thing on this forum and others. $30 an hour to pay someone for connecting and setup is not unreasonable but I would ask- why would you want this service anyway? Many of the subtulties of your new component may not be reconized or even known by the salesman. Also most User Manuals are pretty sketchy and many are poorly written. Make all connections yourself and learn a little at the same time. It seems to me that most complaints with new equipment is the result of a wrong or bad connection or a failure to fully understand the capibilities/in-capibilities of this partcular component. Lighten up a little, the only serious thing here is the money but, you will be getting a warranty right?

 

[Bill Polley]

"Bill:

If you purchase your entire system online, without ever auditioning the pieces, then sound quality is not a factor in your buying decision, because you cannot listen to products over the internet. Its very simple."

I listened to the products in my own home. I returned one item, and ended up buying the aforementioned 3 products. I did buy my Parasound from a B&M and had another terrible experience. I never said they were all bad, just all of the ones in my area, and the surrounding areas. I shouldn't have to drive for 150 miles to find a shop that treats me like a valued customer! It's very simple...my system sounds better to me than anything I could purchase in the B&Ms for 50% more than I paid. To top that, I got great warranties, helpful sales and tech support after the sale, and fantastic service when a fix was found for a known hiss problem on the Outlaw 950. As I said, the Outlaw was a big improvement over the NAD, and it blew away both a Denon and a Yamaha receiver I had side by side with it in my home (powered by my NAD's amp) while the B&M fiasco with my Parasound Amp was going on.

I know what the B&Ms by me offer...poor service, poor sales, and high prices. Oh, by the way, they do carry top notch products too. Maybe I needed to spend a weekend, a few nights in a hotel, and a few hundred $ in gas looking for a B&M in a larger city that treated me well. Instead I listened to all the fanboys here, the published reviews, and talked to the owners of the companies themselves, and chose to buy great products from great people.

One last thought...Outlaw reminds people of the 80's style classic NAD, Proton, and Atlantic Technology products for good reason...their pedigrees are closely related.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Bill,
I also have the 950 and did the same swap outs as you did.It was the easiest return experience I've ever had to deal with regarding exchange or warranty repair.It was less of a hassle then returning a defective DVD to Best Buy.
Yeah, Peter Triebsman formely with NAD currently with Outlaw & A.T.Very nice guy, he called me once regarding the exchange,chatted a bit about the business and stuff.It was a quiet a surprise,it seems that he does this to time to time to his customers.What a class act!

 

[Bill Polley]

Lewis, the long wait for the 950 was agonizing, but very worth it. I was very close to getting the Rotel when production first stopped. A call to Scott assured me I would be one of the first when production restarted, so I waited. Boy am I glad I did! The Rotel was on par with the 950 overall, and they both blew away the receivers I was considering. Once I got the 950 and put it side by side with the others, the difference was night and day.

Where I never thought electronics made a big difference...I now do! The receivers all sounded about the same, except for the Denon, which sounded better than the others, but not quite as good as my NAD or my buddy's H/K. The Outlaw was substantially better than the Denon.


Willscary