UHD Review A Few Words About A few words about...™ - A Fistful of Dollars & For a Few Dollars More -- in 4k UHD (1 Viewer)

[OliverK]

Since they now have a deal with Paramount...

Yep, that's what I thought!

Currently Paramount does not seem to have a 4k DCP so when this gets scanned in 4k Kino might be able to tell Paramount that they are not eager for them to work their digital "magic" that we have seen with other titles.

Once Upon A Time In The West | Park Circus

Now, for the first time, Sergio Leone's original uncut version of this monumental epic can be seen. The picture itself is as big as its Monument Valley locations, as grand as its fine, distinguished cast, as tough and bawdy as every kid imagines the Old West. Henry Fonda plays the blackest...

www.parkcircus.com

 

[usrunnr]

Will Kino deliver us a 4K Paint Your Wagon next?

Please!

 

[SuperClark]

I stated that Clint was offered the role of Harmonica.There are many sites that say the same and not just the 2 sources I listed.I have not seen any links or documentation listed to discredit that info.He wanted to do other things other than spaghetti westerns.Thats the main reason he refused the role.I do not like the movie Paint Your Wagon and Eastwood said he didn't either.Just didn't turn out the way he wanted.He actually has a fine voice.

 

[Dave H]

I watched both films on my new pro-cal'd JVC 4K projector (on a 9 foot wide ST100 scope screen). They looked gorgeous and very film-like. Love them. I still have not watched The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly yet...but will soon.

 

[ArnoldLayne]

I have the UHD TGTBATU which is awesome and was highly needed. Today I watched A Fistful of Dollars from the Man With No Name Trilogy BD from 2010 to review its awesomeness or lack of. It looked really good. I'm on the fence on $40 for the first two movies. Maaybe I'll wait for a lower price to make the move...

 

[OliverK]

I stated that Clint was offered the role of Harmonica.There are many sites that say the same and not just the 2 sources I listed.I have not seen any links or documentation listed to discredit that info.He wanted to do other things other than spaghetti westerns. Thats the main reason he refused the role.

I have no issue with you posting that part of the story it just was new to me, not that I read much about it as it wasn't a huge point of interest for me - both Leone and Eastwood made great movies after they parted and were very successful on their own.

Regarding the story that I mentioned I just checked and I have a book called Horizons West from Bill Kitses where I first read about Clint and the other two being approached for the opening scene of Once Upon A Time in the West:

See on Amazon

Very good book for western fans and unlike so many others it is still available at reasonable prices.

 

[OliverK]

Caps have been posted on the caps-a-holic site. Unlike TGTBATU there does not seem to be any uptick in detail over the older Blu-rays. Even with Techniscope I would assume better results with a 4k scan off the camera negative but maybe this was an older scan or not off the OCN?

A Fistful of Dollars • US Ultra HD Blu-ray vs. DE Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

For a Few Dollars More • DE Blu-ray vs. US Ultra HD Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

Would be interesting to hear what was scanned when and on what kind of equipment.

As these seem to be the versions that come closest to the premiere cuts and Kino can only work with what they get from the studios so this is not meant to dissuade anybody from buying.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Caps have been posted on the caps-a-holic site. Unlike TGTBATU there does not seem to be any uptick in detail over the older Blu-rays. Even with Techniscope I would assume better results with a 4k scan off the camera negative but maybe this was an older scan or not off the OCN?

A Fistful of Dollars • US Ultra HD Blu-ray vs. DE Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

For a Few Dollars More • DE Blu-ray vs. US Ultra HD Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

Would be interesting to hear what was scanned when and on what kind of equipment.

As these seem to be the versions that come closest to the premiere cuts and Kino can only work with what they get from the studios so this is not meant to dissuade anybody from buying.

For A Few Dollars More looks like the exact same transfer/master as the previous KL BD, except in 4K, but w/ no extra detail. Unless you had issues w/ the encode/compression of that prior BD, don't see any reason to upgrade to this 4K, if you already have that BD -- and the old MGM BD may have been contrast/sharpening boosted some (w/ somewhat diff grading) to bring out the details more (and may look more electronic/digital/garish instead of filmlike by comparison to this).

Interestingly, A Fistful of Dollars looks to have a very different, more natural grading (that better matches the FAFDM BD and 4K) than the previous KL BD... though again no meaningful extra detail -- the old MGM BD again looked contrast/sharpening boosted (w/ somewhat diff grading) like the MGM FAFDM BD.

Not too sure, but the gradings on these also look to be more in common w/ the older KL BD (though probably not quite the same) than the KL 4K for TGTABU -- there's no direct one-to-one frame captured comparisons of course since they're different films.

_Man_

 

[cda1143]

For A Few Dollars More looks like the exact same transfer/master as the previous KL BD, except in 4K, but w/ no extra detail. Unless you had issues w/ the encode/compression of that prior BD, don't see any reason to upgrade to this 4K, if you already have that BD -- and the old MGM BD may have been contrast/sharpening boosted some (w/ somewhat diff grading) to bring out the details more (and may look more electronic/digital/garish instead of filmlike by comparison to this).

Interestingly, A Fistful of Dollars looks to have a very different, more natural grading (that better matches the FAFDM BD and 4K) than the previous KL BD... though again no meaningful extra detail -- the old MGM BD again looked contrast/sharpening boosted (w/ somewhat diff grading) like the MGM FAFDM BD.

Not too sure, but the gradings on these also look to be more in common w/ the older KL BD (though probably not quite the same) than the KL 4K for TGTABU -- there's no direct one-to-one frame captured comparisons of course since they're different films.

_Man_

Man: Based on these screen caps, I'm in complete agreement, but I'm not sure if your comments are based on these caps, or your own comparisons of the discs.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Man: Based on these screen caps, I'm in complete agreement, but I'm not sure if your comments are based on these caps, or your own comparisons of the discs.

Yes, my comments were based on the caps-a-holic screencaps. I don't (yet) have any KL BD or 4K disc, except TGTBATU.

_Man_

 

[OliverK]

For A Few Dollars More looks like the exact same transfer/master as the previous KL BD, except in 4K, but w/ no extra detail. Unless you had issues w/ the encode/compression of that prior BD, don't see any reason to upgrade to this 4K, if you already have that BD -- and the old MGM BD may have been contrast/sharpening boosted some (w/ somewhat diff grading) to bring out the details more (and may look more electronic/digital/garish instead of filmlike by comparison to this).

Interestingly, A Fistful of Dollars looks to have a very different, more natural grading (that better matches the FAFDM BD and 4K) than the previous KL BD... though again no meaningful extra detail -- the old MGM BD again looked contrast/sharpening boosted (w/ somewhat diff grading) like the MGM FAFDM BD.

Not too sure, but the gradings on these also look to be more in common w/ the older KL BD (though probably not quite the same) than the KL 4K for TGTABU -- there's no direct one-to-one frame captured comparisons of course since they're different films.

_Man_

I am certainly not trying to bring down sales but I also doubt that people will see that much of an upgrade in PQ. But wasn't there also the matter of improved editing and original mono sound that was taken care of with the UHD releases? That would still make them the titles to own.

As I have recently watched the two Dollar movies I only got TGTBATU on UHD - too bad I could not have watched the UHD of FOFDM as the German Blu-ray had a sharpened look that I found quite ugly..

 

[Robert Crawford]

I want to hear from people that actually have these 4K discs viewing on their displays.

 

[Dave H]

The Kino UHD BDs look far more filmlike than those BD versions. The BDs have some color issues, clipped whites, and edge enhancement; not to mention 8 bit and less superior compression. The film grain looks a lot more natural on the Kinos. The UHD BD will still show more detail in motion.

 

[OliverK]

The Kino UHD BDs look far more filmlike than those BD versions. The BDs have some color issues, edge enhancement; not to mention 8 bit, and less superior compression.

In fact the UHD is 8 bit too - it does in fact have the same bit depth and color space as the Blu-ray.
Not sure why that is but so far I haven't encountered any UHD/4K release that that has SDR, 10 bit and REC2020 color space.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

I want to hear from people that actually have these 4K discs viewing on their displays.

I watched For a Few Dollars More this evening (watched Fistful last week). I thought both films looked better than the German BD I had previously -- I never owned the Kino BD versions. I am quite satisfied with all Kino's UHDs of the trilogy. This should be the last time I buy these films -- I have done this too many times between various DVD and BD releases.

 

[jack phillips]

Please note that the new FAFDM is the most complete version of the film ever released on home video in North America. If you have any older US release you have a slightly shortened film. The extra content doesn't amount to much--about 30 seconds--but it includes the end of the beating scene where Groggy asks, "Why let 'em live?" and Indio replies, "All things at the right time." Without this exchange there is an awkward cut from the beating scene to the walk-and-talk scene between Indio and his gang (where he explains his plan to fool the El Paso sheriff). The extra dialog isn't essential to the story, but it makes for a smoother transition, and it was what Leone originally intended.

 

[Dave H]

In fact the UHD is 8 bit too - it does in fact have the same bit depth and color space as the Blu-ray.
Not sure why that is but so far I haven't encountered any UHD/4K release that that has SDR, 10 bit and REC2020 color space.

No, it's 10 bit. All UHD BDs are 10 bit.

There will never be an SDR 2020 disc because it's not part of the spec. The spec calls for SDR to be at 709, 2020 only for HDR.

A Fistful of Dollars
Disc Size: 70,123,933,891 bytes
Protection: AACS2
Extras: Ultra HD
BDInfo: 0.7.5.9

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name: 00000.MPLS
Length: 1:39:47.022 (h:m:s.ms)
Size: 68,434,642,944 bytes
Total Bitrate: 91.44 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec Bitrate Description
----- ------- -----------
MPEG-H HEVC Video 79977 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / SDR / BT.709

AUDIO:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1801 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1801 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1723 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1723 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1557 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1557 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1557 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1557 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)

SUBTITLES:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
Presentation Graphics English 18.193 kbps

For a Few Dollars More
Disc Size: 98,903,920,902 bytes
Protection: AACS2
Extras: Ultra HD
BDInfo: 0.7.5.9

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name: 00000.MPLS
Length: 2:12:08.462 (h:m:s.ms)
Size: 96,900,034,560 bytes
Total Bitrate: 97.77 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec Bitrate Description
----- ------- -----------
MPEG-H HEVC Video 84998 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / SDR / BT.709

AUDIO:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1568 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1568 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 2996 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 2996 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1557 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1557 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1557 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1557 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)

SUBTITLES:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
Presentation Graphics English 12.001 kbps

 

[Lord Dalek]

Again I feel this needs to be restated in regards to the Caps-A-Holic caps.

Lets not ignore one big fact here:

At the end of the day, you will not get anything resembling 4k from these UHDs or those of any film shot in Techniscope. That resolution never existed in the first place. At best its a low 2 point something-er-other when Leone has his signature close-ups.

4k is the maximum picture resolution of a full 35mm cel. Techniscope only uses the full width. The height is exactly half the frame so its already pretty compromised (probably closer to Quad HD).

 

[OliverK]

No, it's 10 bit. All UHD BDs are 10 bit.

There will never be an SDR 2020 disc because it's not part of the spec. The spec calls for SDR to be at 709, 2020 only for HDR.

A Fistful of Dollars
Disc Size: 70,123,933,891 bytes
Protection: AACS2
Extras: Ultra HD
BDInfo: 0.7.5.9

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name: 00000.MPLS
Length: 1:39:47.022 (h:m:s.ms)
Size: 68,434,642,944 bytes
Total Bitrate: 91.44 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec Bitrate Description
----- ------- -----------
MPEG-H HEVC Video 79977 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / SDR / BT.709

AUDIO:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1801 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1801 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1723 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1723 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1557 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1557 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1557 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1557 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)

SUBTITLES:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
Presentation Graphics English 18.193 kbps

For a Few Dollars More
Disc Size: 98,903,920,902 bytes
Protection: AACS2
Extras: Ultra HD
BDInfo: 0.7.5.9

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name: 00000.MPLS
Length: 2:12:08.462 (h:m:s.ms)
Size: 96,900,034,560 bytes
Total Bitrate: 97.77 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec Bitrate Description
----- ------- -----------
MPEG-H HEVC Video 84998 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / SDR / BT.709

AUDIO:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1568 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1568 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 2996 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 2996 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1557 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1557 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1557 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1557 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)

SUBTITLES:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
Presentation Graphics English 12.001 kbps

Indeed and I also checked a bunch of other SDR titles on caps-a-holic that are all 10 Bit. Not sure why I thought they were only 8 Bit. Not a big believer in 10 Bit making that much of a difference but it is the right thing to do and makes the display chain less dependent on good dithering.

Now if these also had the 2020 color space that could make more of a visible difference in some reds and greens but It would probably need at least some kind of amendment to the standard to be able to do that.

 

[OliverK]

Again I feel this needs to be restated in regards to the Caps-A-Holic caps.



4k is the maximum picture resolution of a full 35mm cel. Techniscope only uses the full width. The height is exactly half the frame so its already pretty compromised (probably closer to Quad HD).

If you have the full 4K in the horizontal domain then 2-perf is no issue as you have the same resolution per mm in the vertical and horizontal domain, same with Super 35. It only would be an issue if there would be less resolution from left to right like for example 3k or 2.5k.

In that case a traditional scope movie would for example achieve roughly 2.5k by 2.1k resolution on the negative so that would help with a UHD Blu-ray that needs about 3840 x 1634 pixels for a traditional scope movie - horizontal resolution would be a bit too low for 4k but vertical resolution would even be more than needed.