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You don't need to know JP's normal weight to recognize he's scary skinny in "Joker". I mean, even if you think "oh, they cast a really thin actor", the impact of an unhealthy-looking Arthur remains...

The super-skinny Arthur showed how messed up he was. A healthier-looking character would've made him seem less extreme. Also, it's entirely possible - and from what I know of the actor, likely - that Phoenix chose to lose the weight, not that "they" wanted him to do so....

Who argued that you have to be a talk show host to play one? No one other than Mr. Straw Man. Some feel that De Niro's performance as a talk show host was unconvincing - especially if we're meant to buy him as essentially a Johnny Carson sort. Yes, it's "acting", and some feel his acting...

Here's the clip: Cool that De Niro went along with it!

:rolleyes: My prior post said I didn't take my opinion and claim that the world shared it. Obviously I made a statement about the general view of De Niro's performance, but your claim that it was my view as well is incorrect...

One more time: my comments echoed the oft-stated sentiment of others. I didn't take my own opinion and generalize it to the world. I'm neither here nor there on De Niro in "Joker" - I don't think he totally works as a talk show host, but I understand he's there for reasons in addition to his...

:rolleyes: No, I didn't poll every viewer. I read reviews as well as comments in places like this, and a lot of them didn't think De Niro was right for the part. Are you the kind of guy who says political polls are worthless because they didn't ask every human in existence?

There's no history in Batman lore of a character named Arthur whose mother worked for Thomas Wayne who then became Joker either, is there? No one here says the theory that Arthur isn't "THE Joker" is clearly correct, but it's viable. Not sure why you seem so dead-set against it and 100% sure...

Meaning it's not a difficult concept to see that it's ironic when you hate something but only like the one thing most of the fans dislike...

It's ironic that you hate the movie but like the one thing that most people who like it dislike. Not a difficult concept...

Perhaps not joking, but exaggerating wildly - or you've seen maybe 5 movies in your life. Hate the movie if you want, but worst movie you've ever seen? Seriously???

Ironic that you liked that part, since many people have felt that De Niro was wrong for the role. It's unclear if Murray's show is national or just a Gotham thing, but since it looks a lot like Carson's "Tonight", many have felt it's national. Hard to believe the gruff Murray would be loved in...

:rolleyes: No one says that. Comments like this don't really help your claim that you're not dismissive toward people with mental illness. Oh, and the movie's Joker isn't a "serial killer" anyway! :blink:

We can tell that Arthur's had a pretty miserable life. He has severe mental illness and he was raised by someone with severe mental illness. Yet you pooh-pooh that. Sorry, but that looks like a dismissal of the impact of mental illness to me... As I noted in another thread, it's not my...

Geez - this is one of the cruelest statements I've read on this board. You've basically dismissed anyone will mental illness as some whiner who needs to get over it! :eek: No one asks you to believe that. No one says Arthur becomes the Batman villain - and there are plenty of reasons to...

Yeah, there's been a lot of discussion along the lines of your spoilerized comments...

I think there's room for a variety of different Joker origin stories. For all intents and purposes, Batman's is set in stone. Sure, some have mucked with the details - like 1989 making Jack the killer - but all involve dead parents in an alleyway. Not a lot of variation involved. Joker's...

That's what you've gotten from the discussion? :huh:

Didn't answer the question...

Do you refuse to see the movie solely because it's Joker? If this was exactly the same movie without a Batman connection, would you see it then?

"Joker" has already made more than $550m WW - 10 times its budget!

"Poor vs. rich" is obviously an ancient theme, so I didn't mean to imply that it was dated and stuck circa 2010 or so. But that era put it to the fore more than what we see currently. "Dark Knight Rises" operated from some of those themes - though it seemed to side with the 1%! There's so...

Huh - coulda sworn I said that first! :(

I don't think Joker's following was all white, much less clearly "white supremacists". As much as people try to plop "Joker" in the alt-right or incel categories, it doesn't fit. It's more "downtrodden vs. the 1 percent" - it fits more with the Occupy sentiment of the early 2010s than with the...

I like "Returns" more than "Batman", but I don't think it's so much "darker" as it is "more grotesque". IIRC, it was the ugly depiction of Penguin that inspired the main gripes about the movie, as the film made him pretty damned disgusting!

I think there's some "not dark enough!" about Jack's Joker because some fans wanted the Frank Miller take on the character - and the whole franchise, really. So there was precedence for "dark Batman" in 1989 but WB wasn't willing to let the filmmakers go that far - if they wanted to, that is...

I've seen the 1989 "Batman" at least 30 times, so no, I don't think I need to watch it again. And I don't disagree Jack's more like Romero than the uber-dark Ledger and Phoenix, but I still think Jack's Joker offers an air of real menace and threat that the comical Romero performance lacks...

I wouldn't agree with that. The 1989 Joker is still a brutal madman who kills for thrills. No, Jack's Joker isn't a tormented soul, but he's still a psychopath, not some jolly oddball ala the 1960s Joker...

Crazy fact to consider: Jack was 52 when "Batman" hit screens, whereas Phoenix is currently 44 - he'll be 45 this month. Leto was also 44 when he played Joker. Ledger was the "odd Joker out" because he was only 28 when he did the part. Nuts to realize how close in age Nicholson and the others...

I'm with you. Superman might put his trust in the wrong people, but I never viewed him as a "bad guy" in "DKR". And I love that story! Pretty much as good as Batman gets!