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Blackberry Reveals Torch


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#1 of 32 mattCR

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Posted August 03 2010 - 05:52 AM

http://www.engadget....ry-torch-event/


http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/


I admit, I've already pre-ordered.

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#2 of 32 Sam Posten

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Posted August 03 2010 - 06:10 AM

The 'SDK' is going to be all web apps from what I read, ala the failed Palm strategy.  If so, color me unimpressed.  They will sell a bajillion to their existing corporate accounts but as a consumer phone meh.


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#3 of 32 Sam Posten

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Posted August 03 2010 - 06:50 AM

Not looking so hot:

http://www.boygenius...-9800-hands-on/

http://www.slashgear...g-take-0396414/


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#4 of 32 mattCR

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Posted August 03 2010 - 06:51 AM

Unlike Palm, though, Blackberry has always done one thing exceptionally well: the phone portion of their mobile phone is the best in the business :)


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#5 of 32 Sam Posten

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Posted August 03 2010 - 06:52 AM

Even that is getting bad marks already.It locked up on Engadget in their hands on a couple of times.


  • The software is typical RIM — uninspired, old, clunky sometimes, and cluttered.
  • The keyboard is perfect — just like a Bold 9700,
  • The internals of the BlackBerry Torch 9800 are disappointing.
  • The screen is laughable.


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#6 of 32 Sam Posten

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Posted August 03 2010 - 06:54 AM

Giz isn't sold either.

http://gizmodo.com/5...weirdly-evolved


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#7 of 32 Hanson

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Posted August 03 2010 - 07:47 AM


My personal thought so far is: this is a stop gap device for current BlackBerry users… and that’s an issue. iPhone 4 or recent Android owners won’t be lusting after the 9800, and that’s never a good thing.


That about sums it up.  For BB diehards only.  I'm sure the Apple and Android fanboys are laughing at the specs.  Sub 1Ghz processor?  3.2" 480 x 360 screen?  Even the Palm Pre fanboys are laughing at the Torch.



#8 of 32 mattCR

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Posted August 03 2010 - 08:12 AM

I think it largely depends on what the end user is after.  I have used Blackberry some time, the wife with a iPhone at the moment, but a Curve in the past.  I admit, I simply wouldn't give up a keyboard.  Not in a million years.  Touch screens, even the best, are simply not functional for me.  It's 3PM here in CST, and at this point, I've had a few hundred email flow through my BB, along with 82 responses.  I couldn't dream of doing that on any of the alternatives.   The only one that came close to that experience was a captivate, and it's still not quite there.


The reality is a keyboard lets me type without ever looking at my phone.  Which is imperative at times. 

I really strongly considered the leap to a Captivate.  It's probably my other choice.  But in the end, the Captivate doesn't have anything like BES, and that's the dealbreaker.  I think once you get used to something like BES, it's very hard to find any other email system really all that viable.  Google's is close, but still a few levels away from where I need it to be.

I think Apple/Google will fight like banshees over the consumer class.  And the consumers will pish-posh BB.  But BB will continue to sell in truckloads to businesses who really don't see an alterantive to BES.


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#9 of 32 Hanson

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Posted August 03 2010 - 08:34 AM



Originally Posted by mattCR 

I really strongly considered the leap to a Captivate.  It's probably my other choice.  But in the end, the Captivate doesn't have anything like BES, and that's the dealbreaker.  I think once you get used to something like BES, it's very hard to find any other email system really all that viable.  Google's is close, but still a few levels away from where I need it to be.

Just curious, but what is so sorely lacking from Exchange Activesync that exists on BES?  I know there are more security and group policy features in BES but what's there that impacts the user experience?


      Quote:

Originally Posted by mattCR ../../..

I think it largely depends on what the end user is after.
I think the primary answer to that is, "I want a Blackberry".



#10 of 32 mattCR

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Posted August 03 2010 - 09:01 AM



Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo 



Just curious, but what is so sorely lacking from Exchange Activesync that exists on BES?  I know there are more security and group policy features in BES but what's there that impacts the user experience?


      Quote:

I think the primary answer to that is, "I want a Blackberry".


Ok, let me go through it:


ActiveSync checks in cycles.  Normally about every 5 minutes.  ATT default for smartphones is 15 minutes.  BES is instant.  The moment it is delivered to your Exchange, it appears on your blackberry.  While five minutes (a quick AS refresh) is short, instant is instant.


Calendar, Contacts and Notes all stream OTA, so someone can change your calendar at the office and the updates are pushed to your blackberry.  Not available at all in AS.  Google has worked this somewhat with their calendaring service and an exchange connector, but not real time.


Ability to use Exchange Global Address List, group addressing, team addressing, and GAL OUs.  This one is a major thing.


If your a user, and you're used to just typing in "UX" and sending an email and having it go to everyone in the UX team, the difference in end user experience is phenomenal.


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#11 of 32 Hanson

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Posted August 03 2010 - 09:34 AM

Actually, there is a setting in eas for "as they arrive, and this is true push email. I didn't have it in winmo, so this is a new feature. And contacts and calendar items sync just like emails, and I can even accept meeting requests to your calendar. There is no support for to do or notes yet. I'll have to check the GAL -- I don't think that is supported yet, but I did have it on ky winmo phone.

#12 of 32 Hanson

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Posted August 03 2010 - 09:34 AM

Actually, there is a setting in eas for "as they arrive, and this is true push email. I didn't have it in winmo, so this is a new feature. And contacts and calendar items sync just like emails, and I can even accept meeting requests to your calendar. There is no support for to do or notes yet. I'll have to check the GAL -- I don't think that is supported yet, but I did have it on ky winmo phone.

#13 of 32 mattCR

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Posted August 03 2010 - 09:54 AM



Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo 

Actually, there is a setting in eas for "as they arrive, and this is true push email. I didn't have it in winmo, so this is a new feature. And contacts and calendar items sync just like emails, and I can even accept meeting requests to your calendar. There is no support for to do or notes yet. I'll have to check the GAL -- I don't think that is supported yet, but I did have it on ky winmo phone.


No, Calendar does not sync the same :)   See how easily you can maintain a 'public' 'team' and 'individual' calendar within your (any other device).  And while "Push" can be done, it requires a client that runs on your workstation at your office, etc.  That kind of defeats the whole point.


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#14 of 32 Hanson

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Posted August 03 2010 - 09:59 AM

It's true exchange push, I don't have rigged through my Outlook client. This is a new feature -- I didn't have it on any previous winmo phone.



#15 of 32 mattCR

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Posted August 03 2010 - 11:26 AM

Hmm.  That's interesting.  That is something I have not seen at all, outside of running a sync client constantly in a tray of a computer on the network.  So, you're saying with your PC at your network off, etc. you get GAL/and multi-level calendars through Android... that makes it very tempting.  I hadn't seen anything about that.  That is the big function I cannot lose


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#16 of 32 Hanson

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Posted August 03 2010 - 11:37 AM

I haven't mucked around with the GAL, so that's not confirmed -- but I did have GAL access with my WinMo phone. Multi-calendars is a maybe.  I'll play with that in the office tomorrow.


But push email is definitely working.


There's no way it's going through the Outlook client because I never set anything up on the desktop and the phone has no idea where my desktop is.  There are no connections between Outlook and Gmail either.  It's purely via Exchange.  This is the first I've seen this functionality -- I actually didn't think it was real push email until I tested it today.  The message appeared instantly on the phone.




#17 of 32 Sam Posten

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Posted August 03 2010 - 12:21 PM

Ouch

Originally Posted by Sam Posten 

Giz isn't sold either.

http://gizmodo.com/5...weirdly-evolved


It's worse than not impressed actually.

http://gizmodo.com/5...ls-doom-for-rim


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#18 of 32 mattCR

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Posted August 03 2010 - 01:52 PM


Gizmodo's article is pretty much hyperbole and kind of laughable, Sam.  here's the reality:


Google has now passed Apple and makes up 27% of the day to day sales and marketshare compared to Apple's 23%.

http://www.examiner....hone-Blackberry


Meanwhile, RIM makes up 33%.

Most of RIM's sales are to customers who, like me, have no interest in touch screens.. which is why I avoided the Storm, etc.  But also to businesses.  Where the advantages are significant.  If, as is above, Android has a grab on multi-calender and GAL, that's a big advantage.  While WinMo had this, let's face it, WinMo sucked bad as a PHONE and no one wanted it for a PHONE.

Like I said, I need the ability to type fast and go through messaging quickly.  I like the ability to sort and quick respond, etc. as well as one of the best speakerphones in the business.  My phone is permanently disabled for the camera function, which I'm glad RIM still allows (I cannot carry a camera of any sorts into some of the places where I am required to go).    "Spells doom for RIM" is kind of laughable.  Right now, Blackberry is selling at a higher rate then it ever has, and to be honest, a much higher rate then I think they can sustain.  I think RIM's correct marketshare is probably about 20%, the corporate clients who will gravitate to it, and those will still be buying it up in massive bundles.


What appears to be happening is that Google is gobbling up marketshare like crazy with Android, and has went from nowhere to 27%.  And they did that in a year.  Nothing can change that fact, Google came along and within 18 months they went from nothing to 27%.  That's stunning.

But Gizmodo's "It's all over" maybe the most laughable thing I've seen.  While I can't speak for everyone, I know of at least 500 units of these that were preordered today, and I'm assuming after I'll hear from other clients that will also transition from the Bold as their company approved device.


Blackberry had one of the best weeks ever as far as internal promotion because of an odd source:


http://www.zdnet.com...er-privacy/5732


Like free advertisement for those of us that use Blackberry Messenger.


Like I said, there are things I love about every phone.  And yes, the Blackberry Torch appeals first and foremost to Blackberry faithful.  But contending "RIM needed a home run" when they show profits and make up 33% of day to day sales is like saying "boo-hoo-hoo"


You know the top thing that gets asked of me for my clients who use RIM?  These tasks are their top:  How to disable the media player, access to facebook and twitter, and how to disable the camera.  We do the exact same thing on every phone.  And RIM provides the tools to allow that to happen and to allow us to brick a phone from remote.

Google has already sent out tools to partners about how to force disable the cameras and disable media players, but they don't have a remote brick function.  Apple doesn't have any of that.

Every phone has it's ideal end user.  Yes, I'm a Blackberry zealot.  I love the device, I always have.  I've had one since the 7250.  So, yes, I'm a bit biased.  I've tried other devices, and I always come home.  I can't give up the keyboard, have no interest in buying a phone without one.  Touch is to me, junk.  Find me someone who can one handed drive a golf cart and bang out a message on a touch screen.. without running into a trap ;)  I have no interest in media, audio or music, I have an iPod for that.  Give me the best speakerphone I can get.

I think we are really coming to a divide on what people want and expect.  The consumer wants unlimited choices.  Businesses who provide their employees phones don't want to provide them those choices because it's a giant time suck.


One other nice thing about BES, btw, that isn't in anything else:  you can track every phone's data usage, what they are doing and in and out.    and as far as controlling employee cost, that's a nice little feature.


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#19 of 32 Patrick Sun

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Posted August 03 2010 - 03:47 PM

I deal with telecommunications at work, and I foresee many people suddenly "drop-kicking" their BB 9000s so they can upgrade to the BB 9800 in a few weeks.  If I didn't have a BB 9700, I'd probably want to check out the Torch as well, but I'm still inside my upgrade cycle period (ineligible for the upgrade pricing at the moment).  I'm hoping they do upgrade the screen resolution on the next BB model after the Torch/9800.  Don't care about touchscreens, swiping motion, etc., but it's funny to watch people who are used to finger swipes struggle with the scrollpad on the BBs.  Heh.  Businesses will continue to use BBs until other smart phone makers develop enterprise-level serves/tools that allow businesses to wipe them from a simple kill command from the skies.


Using earbuds, I'm perfectly fine using the BB to play some tunes stored on a micro-SD card, I don't need my entire music collection with me (i.e. iTouch, iPhone, Droid, etc).  The BB camera is fine in a pinch.  I'm not an app hound, so the basics are fine by me.  It could be a generational thing too, I know younger people just expect apps to be there to do what they think they need to be able to do on their smartphones.  Old farts like me, not so much.

 

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#20 of 32 Hanson

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Posted August 04 2010 - 06:01 AM

So on my stock Evo with 2.2, the results are:  push email, yes.  Contact sync back and forth, yes.  Multiple Calendar not supported out of the box but it is push updated (but for some reason, you can edit the event on the phone and sync, but if you delete the event on the phone, it stays on the Exchange calendar).  GAL is definitely not supported.


At this point, it doesn't look like Google is really interested in developing corporate apps, which is why you have to turn to 3rd party solutions for tighter Exchange integration.  In fact, from what I understand, the Exchange mail app as I have it was developed by HTC and not Google.  Apple seems also content to leave the business market to RIM, meaning regardless of overall marketshare, it looks like RIM will be around for a while.






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