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we need to be good consumers, if we want good products


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#21 of 44 OFFLINE   Jeff Willis

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Posted November 29 2009 - 02:02 PM

Brad,

I agree with Gary, you brought up some very good points and the posts since yours are good ones.  So I'll put in my 2 cents as well /img/vbsmilies/htf/chatter.gif">

I think you mentioned a key word in your post, subjective.  A lot of what we consider before buying a TV/DVD set is going to be based on how much we want a show in the collection vs what are we willing to accept regarding the various parameters, cut eps, print quality, other edits.  Another parameter that goes into the equation is, how do we watch our TV/DVD's?  By that I refer to the various TV displays available, viewing distance, conversion format (480i thru 1080p for std upscaling DVD players), via HDMI, component, composite, S-Video....you all get the idea.  From reading the posts over the past few years on the Bd, my impression is that these things affect one's perception on what may be, to them, an acceptable or unacceptable DVD set.  I've read many posts here similar to "This DVD set looks great on my 19" CRT TV".  To each their own, it's not meant as a slam on those that are still watching their collections on a CRT set, it's just that some here have had flat-pnl HD sets for a while and are watching their TV/DVD's on the HD displays.

One thing I try to remember when posting here is that, unfortunately, we on this Bd represent only a small fraction of the TV/DVD buying consumer.  Who knows the #'s?  I'd put our # around 2-5% if that much, so our concerns probably don't relate to most of the customers out there.  That said, for me, I have a "line" that I won't cross when it comes to transfer/print quality for most sets. 

I'm watching my DVD's on a 50" Panasonic Plasma about 8-9 Ft from the screen upconverted to 1080p from a Std region-free player via HDMI cables.

For me I rate some of the more familiar sets this way: "Dick Van Dyke", "Combat!", "Wagon Train Color Set", and other similar sets, I'd rate as in the "B" group.
 
Sets like the Image "Twilight Zone Def Version" or the CBS/P sets like "The Fugitive", "Mission:Impossible" sets, those to me are "A" sets.

That said, watching everything upconverted to 1080p, I rarely see enough print imperfections to distract me from enjoying the actual show that I'm watching on the DVD.  I always watch in the OAR format, for the older TV/DVD's in 4:3 mode.

"Room 222 S1" set:  This set, to me, is an uncacceptable TV/DVD release due to the un-restored prints.  This is not a knock on the show itself.  I really liked the show when I watched it many years ago and I did buy the set (only due to that Amazon glitch with the error in their price before release). 

M-Squad: Based on the premise of that show, and Gary's info on it, excluding the print quality, I'd have bought that set.  However, after getting reviews, online and first-hand, I passed on it for the same reason as Room 222, print quality.  I don't have any problem with anyone else that supports the releases of the older un-restored shows.  I think it's great that the ones that want these shows are seeing their releases.  It's just a decision that I, as a consumer, choose to make to pass on these types of print-Q sets.  One reason that I pass on them is simply a time-limiting choice...."so many DVD's....so little time..." (to borrow a fellow-members sig).  Since I have that limitation, I decide on TV/DVD buys with that in mind as well as the other parameters mentioned earlier.

Since we here represent (imo) a small # of the sales pie, I've not considered the "no sale" reasoning to try and send any message to a studio.  If others decide that this is a reason to pass on a particular TV/DVD set, I have no problem at all with it, it's just not something that I think about when deciding on a purchase.  I believe that, in order to insure future releases of a show, that show needs to sell well in the "Joe Six Pack" crowd that frequents their local Best Buy, Walmart, and perhaps will buy on an impulse while browsing or noticing something in passing the DVD shelves.  Since I've never been in that group of DVD-buying, it doesn't affect me.

The other issue that affects my purchasing decision, especially within the past 1-2 years, is the price.  We all know if we wait, we're going to see a significant price drop with almost every TV/DVD set that's been released.  I know the "support the release or else" thought about this, but as I mentioned earlier, imo, we here aren't representing the larger sales #'s that these studios require to continue releases of a particular show.  Perhaps I'm underestimating the online/forum customer's sales impact, but from what I've heard from others in the "know" in this business, we're only a small blip on the studio's radars.

Brad, your other point about the "boycott" angle is, imo, spot on.  I just don't see us in the forum community, being able to have any significant effect on a studio with that action.  That said, I'm also doubtful that any past attempted actions, either by forum chat or not buying a release, has had much if any effect on a studio's decision to continue or abandon a show's release.  Maybe I'm missing this, but imo, I don't think so.  "Big Valley' (Fox) was mentioned.  I'd have bet the farm that this show would have had enough "baby boomer" backing to see the completion of its release.  I was wrong.  That show won awards back then and has had a fairly large following since that time.  But whatever Fox's "in the black" line was for that show, I guess it didn't make the cut.  I don't like it, but life goes on.

Another point that has been brought up on the Bd during the past several years, was mentioned here today.  How many of those that support a boycott idea or are in the "no sale" post group here, own an alternate set of a show that they're wanting the rest of us to pass on the purchase of that show?  Just some food for thought.

That said, as you mentioned, there have definitely been some positive things come about as a result of forum/online customer feedback, ie the re-issued Fugitive sets, and Shout! as you mentioned, is willing to listen and has their own forum as a communications tool.  Unfortunately, some of the major studios, with Warner being a notable positive, don't have much, if any means of receiving feedback from guys like us on this Bd.  At least, that's been my take on it to date.

Bottom line, to me, is that we all have to make our individual decisions on these TV/DVD buys.  For me, if it's one of my top "holy grails", I'd be likely to buy what some here would consider an unacceptable set.  For example, "Combat!" is among my all-time favorites and I was fortunate to see the entire 5-yr series get released.  I remember at the time of the Image releases, that the DVD sets were getting considerable criticism, mainly due to the show's Time-Compression (most of the S1-4 B/W eps are T/C'ed) and the source of the prints that Image used for their DVD releases (the "Worldvision" tapes), and not the original masters.  Now, I was disappointed as the rest of the guys here that know the show, but there was no way I would pass on buying that entire series.  Fortunately for the fans of the show, the episodes in tho DVD sets are unedited as far as scenes.  Yes, they're T/C'ed but that's about the same time parameter as watching a PAL DVD outputted to an NTSC set, about a 4% speed-up.

As Brad said, "you only live once" and I pulled out the S1 Combat! set this weekend on impulse and watched 2 eps back to back.  Awesome, for me.  Point: Easily worth the purchase for me, imperfections notwithstanding.  For me, though, there's a world of difference in the print Q with Combat! vs Room 222 or M-Squad, as top-quality as those shows themselves are...and imo, they are very good ones.  I can't be concerned about "supporting the release" with sets that don't pass my line of quality (prints).  I also can't see my way clear to buying something that has a good chance or staying un-watched on the shelf for a long time due to my borderline interest in the show.

Final (I promise ) thoughts on Blu-Ray: I hate to be a <img alt= guy about this, but I agree with some here....I just don't see most of these older shows ever getting released on BR.  There have been a few, "The Prisoner", and others, but by and large, BR is seen, imo, by the studios, as a format for new and recent programming.  The Std format has been around since, what, '97?  And look at all of the TV shows, as well as movies, that have yet to be released on that format.  I don't see BR changing that much.

If they start to crank out older TV shows on BR, I wouldn't double-dip on 95-99% of my Std collection anyway.  I would have to shell out the $$'s for one of those BR region-free players which will play all Std regions as well.

OT sports: Anyone catch that Arizona/Tennessee game?  Fantastic finish.  Vince :)  I still remember that '05 'Horns title :)  How about those Colts?  Still undefeated.  Go Saints (Mon night).  Sorry, Gary....they're playing the Pats :)   Great holiday weekend for me....'Horns heading for that BCS title game if they beat the 'Huskers on Sat.

ml1fyo.jpg  "Checkmate King Two, 'Out'" "Combat! A Selmur Production"

 

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My 2 all-time favorite TV shows:
"Combat!" & "The Fugitive"
My 2 all-time best blind-buys: "The Fugitive"   "The Donna Reed Show"


#22 of 44 OFFLINE   Gary OS

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Posted November 29 2009 - 02:21 PM

Wow again!  I hate to just keep saying "amen" to what you guys are posting without saying much more - but you really are covering all the same bases I would.  For instance, I'm in full agreement with Jeff about those of us here not representing the larger audience the studios are looking at. 

While I am pretty cynical and skeptical when it comes to the studios listening to the consumers, there are a couple of small victories here and there.  For instance, as best as I can tell the one and only reason we saw the ultra-rare Christmas-themed episode from WINDOW ON MAIN STREET released is because I asked Brian Ward about it several times at the Shout board and Sitcoms Online.  There may have been one other poster that also mentioned it with me, but as best I can tell it was released on the basis of the request of just a couple of fans.  Literally!  So every once in a blue moon you get some nice surprises, but I'd never expect just one or two people to be able to have that kind of impact.  Unless we are talking Oprah...


Gary "if Shout is listening I have many more suggestions for Christmas-themed compilations" O.  /img/vbsmilies/htf/smiley_wink.gif

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#23 of 44 OFFLINE   Jeff Willis

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Posted November 29 2009 - 02:29 PM

Gary,

It's interesting that you mention your Shout! feedback.  One of the main reasons that Image went ahead with the Combat! release was due to "T-Gun" on the Combat! forum.  He worked directly with Image in supplying info and fan feedback during the planning of that DVD series release.  So you're right, sometimes it does make a difference.

Also, I remember you telling me about that "Dick Van Dyke" DVD release story.  The license owner needed convincing that the show would do well if it was released on DVD. 

Remembering that (orig) Star Trek quote from Cpt Kirk: "In every revolution, there's one man with a vision."

ml1fyo.jpg  "Checkmate King Two, 'Out'" "Combat! A Selmur Production"

 

TV/DVD Collector, mainly 50's thru 90's with a few 2000+ shows.
My 2 all-time favorite TV shows:
"Combat!" & "The Fugitive"
My 2 all-time best blind-buys: "The Fugitive"   "The Donna Reed Show"


#24 of 44 OFFLINE   Gary OS

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Posted November 29 2009 - 03:00 PM

     Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Willis 

Gary,

Also, I remember you telling me about that "Dick Van Dyke" DVD release story.  The license owner needed convincing that the show would do well if it was released on DVD.  

Yep.  That's Doug Denoff that you are talking about.  He's the unsung hero of that series being out on dvd today.  Not the guy who's name is plastered all over those sets.  Doug went to bat early on in the dvd craze and put a lot of time and energy into convincing certain people that this idea of releasing TDVDS in season sets would work.  Everyone that is enjoying those dvds today owes him a debt of gratitude.

That does bring in one more element that could probably be addressed in this thread: Advocates!  We need more of them in positions of influence.  There are enough examples that can be cited to demonstrate advocates help the cause tremendously (which is your Capt. Kirk point, Jeff).  The problem as I see it is that there really are precious few people in the industry who really care about the older material in particular.  Some of them genuinely seem to be excited about newer releases and aren't just in it for the paycheck.  But I see precious few of those all important advocates (the ones in places that matter) for the vintage series.  People who care enough to check running times on episodes before they are released, or will go the extra mile to make sure a series has it's original backscore intact (my, what a novel idea). 

Wish we had more of them. 


Gary "great points made by a bunch of you in this thread - bravo" O.



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                                             ...CHARLIE CHAN AT TREASURE ISLAND
 

 


#25 of 44 OFFLINE   Ethan Riley

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Posted November 30 2009 - 01:25 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by smithb 




As Gary referenced, for "Mama's Family" you have an alternative not all to do so it is easier to boycott a particular release. I don't know anything about that particular release to comment. But I will say that inferior and mediocrity are subjective terms. What is inferior to one may be more then acceptable to another.

As for "Big Valley", the DVD-18's are problematic for some but it is still hard to say how many are actually affected. Those that have had issues are easy to identify while those that don't generally don't respond. So I really doubt that was what failed that series. The quality of the prints were more then acceptable. I seem to recall a high initial cost and I suspect they just didn't meet their expected margins. As a result, it was like they tried to make up for it with an equally expensive and split season 2. That is what I believe killed it, not the format of the disks. But it is good to see in genereal they are getting away from DVD-18's all the way around.

And I will agree with Gary about Blu-ray. I think it will only be prevelant for current shows and a few vintage shows that have an extremely strong following. It is not that they couldn't look good because many really could. It is just that I don't think studios really feel that vintage shows on DVD has been a gret success, so why would they venture to try again with another fomat.
"Mama's Family" season one is generally considered one of the worst tv-on-dvd releases...ever. And that's not just me talking--it's pretty much everyone who bought it. Flip through older threads for loads of Mama hate! lol   I don't consider myself a boycotter of that dvd, I just didn't buy it because I had no use for it. The fact that I already have it on vhs has something to with it, because I consider them a superior product to the dvds, because they are uncut and unedited. They also used inferior picture-quality episodes on those discs--the same prints that have existed in syndication for many years. Mine are simply better, even though the vhs tapes are 26 years old and growing older. What would have happened if I didn't own those vhs tapes? Would I have bought the dvds then? Probably not, citing the rising howls from the members of this forum who did buy it. I would have assumed by now that the studio would have corrected the dvd's many problems, recalled the old dvds and put out better ones. Since they weren't willing to do any such thing, I'll move on and concentrate on the shows that they got right. I own 100s and 100s of dvds and blurays and all of them are of acceptable quality (to me). I don't spend money on junk.

The Big Valley had very good picture quality; but some of the episodes jammed up big time in my own players. Same spots, different players--and the discs would jam. And others on this forum cited the same problems. "Dallas" also utilized DVD-18s and none of mine have ever had a problem, nor have I heard complaints from others.

As for blu-ray--keep in mind that the assumptions you made above echo the assumptions people made when tv-on-dvd just barely got off the ground. People assumed that only cult-favorite tv shows like Star Trek and I Love Lucy would end up on dvd in their entirety. And they were put out early in the game...followed by 100s of other shows. Now, of course, tv-on-bluray is becoming more common...and Star Trek was one of the first vintage shows to appear. Can Lucy be far behind? I don't think so. I think Lucy will start coming out on bluray within the next 2 years. And then the studios will start making second passes with other "fan favorite" shows. "Highlander" is coming out now. I believe they'll try it with shows such as "The X-Files" and "Buffy The Vampire Slayer." Trust me, this is going to happen. Blu-ray will, within the next two years, completely replace standard def in all areas of production. Look at the new movie releases of current blockbusters; they're starting to be priced at $19.99 or even lower. That indicates an leveling-out of the two formats in terms of price points. Little by little, consumers will switch to blu because the price point is in keeping with what they expect to pay for a movie, and of course, they'll gravitate to the superior format. That's what happened between vhs vs. dvd in the first place, 12 years ago. Watch as it's happening again, and now. But don't tell me it's not happening, because I'm watching history repeat itself as we speak--all the evidence is right here in this forum.

 

 


#26 of 44 OFFLINE   LeoA

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Posted November 30 2009 - 01:51 PM

The thing that might end up making Blu-Ray's evolution different from DVD's is digital distribution.

That's a unknown that I think will lead to history not repeating itself with Blu-Ray.


Hope I'm wrong, I'd love nothing more than to own my favorite classic shows on Blu-Ray, but I suspect "leasing" digital copies of our shows is the future we have to look forward to...



#27 of 44 OFFLINE   Gary OS

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Posted November 30 2009 - 02:19 PM

     Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Riley 

As for blu-ray--keep in mind that the assumptions you made above echo the assumptions people made when tv-on-dvd just barely got off the ground. People assumed that only cult-favorite tv shows like Star Trek and I Love Lucy would end up on dvd in their entirety. And they were put out early in the game...followed by 100s of other shows. Now, of course, tv-on-bluray is becoming more common...and Star Trek was one of the first vintage shows to appear. Can Lucy be far behind? I don't think so. I think Lucy will start coming out on bluray within the next 2 years. And then the studios will start making second passes with other "fan favorite" shows. "Highlander" is coming out now. I believe they'll try it with shows such as "The X-Files" and "Buffy The Vampire Slayer." Trust me, this is going to happen. Blu-ray will, within the next two years, completely replace standard def in all areas of production. Look at the new movie releases of current blockbusters; they're starting to be priced at $19.99 or even lower. That indicates an leveling-out of the two formats in terms of price points. Little by little, consumers will switch to blu because the price point is in keeping with what they expect to pay for a movie, and of course, they'll gravitate to the superior format. That's what happened between vhs vs. dvd in the first place, 12 years ago. Watch as it's happening again, and now. But don't tell me it's not happening, because I'm watching history repeat itself as we speak--all the evidence is right here in this forum.

I just don't think the comparisons between the advent of SDVD and Blu-ray are as applicable as you say.  When dvd came on the scene nothing like it had really been seen.  Laser discs had never taken off and certainly there hadn't been a foray into TV series in that format.  Blu-ray, on the other hand, is trying to come right in over the top of a recent format and I just don't see it taking off when it comes to classics.  Sure, its a nice format for HD material and I'm confident it will continue to work well with current films and TV shows.  But let's face it.  The upgrade for older material isn't going to be that great from what we have right now on standard def dvds.  I imagine the studios will try to sell the public on double-dipping into popular titles like I LOVE LUCY, but I'm just not convinced it will take off to the degree that you think it will when it comes to older material.

Bottom line: time will tell who's right and who's not.  But as it stands right now I just don't see vintage TV being saved by Blu-ray.


Gary "I know I'm not double-dipping on vintage series I've already purchased for a very slight upgrade in pic quality" O.


"Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth"
                                             ...CHARLIE CHAN AT TREASURE ISLAND
 

 


#28 of 44 OFFLINE   smithb

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Posted November 30 2009 - 04:23 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Riley 

As for blu-ray--keep in mind that the assumptions you made above echo the assumptions people made when tv-on-dvd just barely got off the ground. People assumed that only cult-favorite tv shows like Star Trek and I Love Lucy would end up on dvd in their entirety. And they were put out early in the game...followed by 100s of other shows. Now, of course, tv-on-bluray is becoming more common...and Star Trek was one of the first vintage shows to appear. Can Lucy be far behind? I don't think so. I think Lucy will start coming out on bluray within the next 2 years. And then the studios will start making second passes with other "fan favorite" shows. "Highlander" is coming out now. I believe they'll try it with shows such as "The X-Files" and "Buffy The Vampire Slayer." Trust me, this is going to happen. Blu-ray will, within the next two years, completely replace standard def in all areas of production. Look at the new movie releases of current blockbusters; they're starting to be priced at $19.99 or even lower. That indicates an leveling-out of the two formats in terms of price points. Little by little, consumers will switch to blu because the price point is in keeping with what they expect to pay for a movie, and of course, they'll gravitate to the superior format. That's what happened between vhs vs. dvd in the first place, 12 years ago. Watch as it's happening again, and now. But don't tell me it's not happening, because I'm watching history repeat itself as we speak--all the evidence is right here in this forum.
 
The Blu-ray debate is an interesting one but as Gary indicated we will just have to wait and see since it is all still speculation as to how far it will go. As for history repeating itself and all the evidence is right here in the forum, well that is also left up to interpretation. In other words, while trying to predict the future we can easily be reading the so-called "tea leaves" differently. Thus, leading to the speculation of differing results.

But I will grant you that Blu-ray disks have come down in price. Enough so that I have already picked up 35 without even having a player yet. I would estimate that I am averaging about $12 a Blu-ray. That is a good sign for helping Blu-ray adoption.

I can very well see Blu-ray being adopted for more recent shows. But here again is where different definitions come into play. For me the line in the sand is drawn at the 70's, where post-70's shows may appear more viable to studios since there is a larger demongraphic that know's these shows. Pre-70's is what I consider to be "vintage" and this is where I believe only the shows with very strong followings and excellent prints will be considered. Interestingly enough, it is the earlier shows that would more likely benefit from a Blu-ray release given that their source might be 35mm film. While many of the 70's and 80's may provide limited benefits with their video source. So again, the evaluation of Blu-ray as a success, or not, in the TV medium may depends on what era of shows one is looking for.

Another factor for history to repeat itself is to what degree of success studio's really feel the production of vintage movies and TV shows has achieved. Again the really well known titles for both are a given. It is the lesser titles where success can be debated. Many say that studio's are putting out fewer and fewer classic titles. The advent of archive programs shows that the previous approach may not havebeen living up to expectation. For TV shows, stalled series after stalled series and obvious slow downs in specific era's. History isn't going to necessarily repeat in areas that were not as profitable as may have been hoped.

And worth repeating, you have to consider the quality of the video source. If the source isn't going to improve the experience in HD then why do it. While yes they could do it for space saving considerations or just because it is the new format, but I don't see many double dipping to take advantage of it. In some cases, taking a lesser source and increasing its resolution seems to make a worse result in that the flaws are magnified even more. You also have shows that were edited at lower resolution video like many shows relying on CGI special effects. These can be very expensive to port up because all the effects have to be redone at a higher resolution to show any real benefit.

All in all, it is interesting to debate, but we will just have to wait a few years to see who guessed right.

#29 of 44 OFFLINE   Ethan Riley

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Posted November 30 2009 - 05:30 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by smithb 

I can very well see Blu-ray being adopted for more recent shows. But here again is where different definitions come into play. For me the line in the sand is drawn at the 70's, where post-70's shows may appear more viable to studios since there is a larger demongraphic that know's these shows. Pre-70's is what I consider to be "vintage" and this is where I believe only the shows with very strong followings and excellent prints will be considered. Interestingly enough, it is the earlier shows that would more likely benefit from a Blu-ray release given that their source might be 35mm film. While many of the 70's and 80's may provide limited benefits with their video source. So again, the evaluation of Blu-ray as a success, or not, in the TV medium may depends on what era of shows one is looking for.

Another factor for history to repeat itself is to what degree of success studio's really feel the production of vintage movies and TV shows has achieved. Again the really well known titles for both are a given. It is the lesser titles where success can be debated. Many say that studio's are putting out fewer and fewer classic titles. The advent of archive programs shows that the previous approach may not have been living up to expectation. For TV shows, stalled series after stalled series and obvious slow downs in specific era's. History isn't going to necessarily repeat in areas that were not as profitable as may have been hoped.

And worth repeating, you have to consider the quality of the video source. If the source isn't going to improve the experience in HD then why do it. While yes they could do it for space saving considerations or just because it is the new format, but I don't see many double dipping to take advantage of it. In some cases, taking a lesser source and increasing its resolution seems to make a worse result in that the flaws are magnified even more. You also have shows that were edited at lower resolution video like many shows relying on CGI special effects. These can be very expensive to port up because all the effects have to be redone at a higher resolution to show any real benefit.

All in all, it is interesting to debate, but we will just have to wait a few years to see who guessed right.
For older shows, if they've remastered the films in hi-def, then their exhibition is definitely going to benefit from a blu-ray format. Problematic shows are those like Dallas and Star Trek: The Next Generation, which were edited on video and can't really be upgraded in that regard. But there plenty of shows that were shot in 35mm that can be remastered in hi-def, and the results will be immediately apparent on Blu-ray--there is no "slight" upgrade in quality. You've got to get yourself a blu-ray player and compare. What you'll see is more than twice as good as it was on dvd. I just bought "Gone With the Wind" on blu-ray...it's beyond amazing, what you will see. True, the special effects in that one look cheesy in hi-def (check out the invisible carriages riding up to Twelve Oaks) but when compared to the film's older dvd release...it's about ten times better than it had been. Ditto the Wizard of Oz. Vintage movies and filmed tv shows on blu-ray are definitely going to enjoy a marked visual improvement over their dvd counterparts; in the cases cited above, a breathtaking improvement.

Recent tv shows? Again, they definitely benefit from blu-ray. I have seasons 1-3 of Supernatural in standard def. I got season 4 in blu-ray...it looks like a completely different show. There's so much clarity now; the show has a much higher impact on me when viewed in hi-def.


Many, many classic shows are being transferred to hi-def right now, to benefit cable and local tv syndicators. This will give those shows good transfers to use for blu-ray. It's being done. Now whether people will stop buying discs altogether in favor of VOD or viewing online; that's none of my business. I'm only talking about the

 

 


#30 of 44 OFFLINE   Jeff Willis

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Posted November 30 2009 - 11:45 PM

The way I look at the BR question is programming availibality.  If the day comes where we have all or most of 50's thru 90's TV/DVD catalog available on BR and we're not seeing duplicate releases in Std DVD of new releases of the older shows, then it'll be time for me to enter the BR mkt.  Until or unless that happens, I'm content with Std upconverted DVD for now.  One has to look at another double-dipping cost scenario as well for another format change, like some of us did when Std DVD replaced VHS and Laserdisc formats.  I didn't invest much in the LD format years ago but I did collect a few titles on that format.  For me, I just don't see being able to justify the cost double-dipping to replace many of my Std DVD's.  The Std DVD format took off so fast that there's a lot of collectors out there that have ammased a large Std collection.

If one if talking about recent releases or a few of the older movies and even fewer TV/DVD shows that have been released to date on BR, then I can see one's viewpoint for entering the BR mkt.  Correct me if I'm wrong here,but I haven't seen many BR releases of TV/DVD shows that date back to the 60's-70's.  "The Prisoner" was one recent exception but I haven't seen many other BR releases in that vintage time frame.  For me, it's all about choice and availability of what the movie collectors refer to as "catalog" titles.  Since I'm not a recent movie and TV series collector, with rare exceptions, BR isn't a format that's going to be something that I'm interested in investing in for the time being.

I have seen BR demonstrated for me by my nephew and I agree, when I was watching one of the "Spiderman" movies on BR, it was awesome.  But, I'm not interested in most of the newer movie and TV series programming so it's a moot point for me.  Now, if you were to demonstrate for me, say, the entire Leave it to Beaver series, or the Big Valley, or Combat! released in BR without amplificaion of its era's filming imperfections, then you have my attention.

No one here, imo, is disputing BR's clear technical advantages of the format.  But there's no case here, again, imo, that BR is going to replace Std DVD anytime soon.  For my definition of that to happen, I'd need to see a vast majority of catalog titles, including older TV/DVD sets being released on BR and I haven't seen that yet.

ml1fyo.jpg  "Checkmate King Two, 'Out'" "Combat! A Selmur Production"

 

TV/DVD Collector, mainly 50's thru 90's with a few 2000+ shows.
My 2 all-time favorite TV shows:
"Combat!" & "The Fugitive"
My 2 all-time best blind-buys: "The Fugitive"   "The Donna Reed Show"


#31 of 44 OFFLINE   Gary OS

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Posted December 01 2009 - 02:32 AM

For the record, I've seen films on Blu-ray a few times and know it's a great format in terms of pic quality and such.  So it's not that I'm unaware or unappreciative.  But like Jeff said, I do believe the greatest advantages come with newer films & TV shows.  The bright colors and clarity work well together. 

Yes, you're right about the older 35 mm material versus the series on film.  Nevertheless, I'm not convinced we will see the same amount of vintage TV released on Blu-ray that we've seen on standard def DVD.  I don't think it will even be close.  A few things here or there maybe, but that's about it.  Hope I'm wrong and you're right.  I'd love to be able to justify buying a BR player and purchasing as yet unreleased material.  But if it's all about rereleasing things that have already come out then I'd be content with watching my dvds upconverted, as Jeff said in his post.  If Blu-ray wants to dive into uncharted waters and start releasing vintage series that have never been released before then I'm all for it.  I just don't believe that will happen.


Gary "good discussion - and definitely two completely different opinions about the future of classic material on Blu-ray" O.

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                                             ...CHARLIE CHAN AT TREASURE ISLAND
 

 


#32 of 44 OFFLINE   Powell&Pressburger

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Posted December 01 2009 - 02:42 AM

any TV show no matter when it was shot can look good in HD. Let's say Saturday Night Live from 1978 is never gonna really do much with HD it was shot on video. However classic shows shot on film can be upgraded and can look better. The Prisoner is a good example.

You don't need bright colors etc for a film to look great in HD.

Take for example The Seventh Seal that was shot in black/white, the HD transfer is insane. In fact most classic films in black and white can certainly have just as good a transfer as a new film or TV show.

a good example is the TV show How I Met Your Mother was rencetly released on Blu-Ray and got not so great reviews came of it. Some people said it looked worse than what they had seen on the TV broadcast. This isn't always the case.

It all depends on if the studio or distributor actaully does a good HD transfer and releases it correctly.

I would also say I can't imagine a huge amount of classic shows being released on blu-ray. Some shows take so many years to be released on DVD, and most cases fans push for the releases while the studios bide their time. I am usually lucky to get a full series release on DVD let alone a BD release.

I can see myself purchasing a show like The Twilight Zone on Blu-ray (there are several video shot eps however)

Stop the Replacing of original Studio Opening / Closing logos! They are part of film history.

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#33 of 44 OFFLINE   Jeff Willis

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Posted December 01 2009 - 03:48 AM

Jack,

I agree with you, the BR potential is awesome.  I'd love to own some of the recently-remastered HD older shows, like M:I, The Fugitive, Mannix, on BR.  But as a consumer, I have to justify my entry into another format and I can't do that at the present time due to the lack of older catalog movie and TV/DVD titles available in BR. 

Most of the time, these discussions are percieved to be "pro or anti" BR.  That's unfortunate since I'm not necessarily anti-BR with one exception.  That is, this "what if" possibility:

Let's say that BR takes off in the next year.  If a result of that is the rapid decline and disappearance in Std DVD, including the few older TV/DVD show releases that we are presently getting from the studios, and assuming that those same vintage era's shows won't see BR format releases, then I have to vote "no sale" for BR.  For those on the Bd that, from my perception, seem to want to promote BR and post accordingly, I ask them that same question.  Would you want to see a format obsolete an earlier format that not only meets your viewing requirements but is releasing the older titles (I'm primarily referring to TV/DVD here), but may discontinue said releases if the newer format expands rapidly?

I don't want to be misunderstood here: Std & BR can co-exist and I personally agree with Bill Hunt's (The Digital Bits) take on this and that is that Std format will be around for a good while.  I believe that the reason that it will is due to the fact that, since its inception, Std DVD exploded onto the scene and grew so fast that there are millions of consumers out there with substantial DVD libararies which represent a considerable investment and they don't see a reason to join the BR mkt at this time.

So, my BR stance is "live and let live" so long as BR's growth doesn't produce a rapid decline or disappearance in (older) TV/DVD releases.  I never visit the new/recent BR release forums and argue that BR is not a good thing.  I'd be laughed off those forums anyway   When I see BR release announcements on the Bits and TSoD, I say "great" for the BR gang,  I don't begrudge them anything.  Hopefully, the BR guys that post here feel the same about the ones that choose not to enter that mkt yet.

ml1fyo.jpg  "Checkmate King Two, 'Out'" "Combat! A Selmur Production"

 

TV/DVD Collector, mainly 50's thru 90's with a few 2000+ shows.
My 2 all-time favorite TV shows:
"Combat!" & "The Fugitive"
My 2 all-time best blind-buys: "The Fugitive"   "The Donna Reed Show"


#34 of 44 OFFLINE   Robert13

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Posted December 01 2009 - 05:54 AM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS ">

While I am pretty cynical and skeptical when it comes to the studios listening to the consumers, there are a couple of small victories here and there.  For instance, as best as I can tell the one and only reason we saw the ultra-rare Christmas-themed episode from WINDOW ON MAIN STREET released is because I asked Brian Ward about it several times at the Shout board and Sitcoms Online.  There may have been one other poster that also mentioned it with me, but as best I can tell it was released on the basis of the request of just a couple of fans.  Literally!  So every once in a blue moon you get some nice surprises, but I'd never expect just one or two people to be able to have that kind of impact.  Unless we are talking Oprah...


Gary "if Shout is listening I have many more suggestions for Christmas-themed compilations" O.  <br /></span>
 </div></div>
Brian's a great guy. He's one of the few that I think really cares about what he does and really does everything in his power to put out a high-quality release. If you're interested, I've sent suggestions for some rare short-lived series episodes including "A Touch Of Grace" (with Shirley Booth) that could be included on "Hazel" if they were to release Season 2, where Sony dropped it, as well as Shirley Hemphill's "One in a Million" which aired after "What's Happening!!" ended. I suggested a possible compilation of episodes from shows like this with a possible title of "What's This?! Rare Shows from TV Past". If they have more interest in any of these ideas, they may act upon them...that is, if you guys are interested. <span rel='lightbox'><img class='bbc_img' alt=


#35 of 44 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted December 01 2009 - 06:05 AM

wow - this thread sure ended up with some good posts.  i guess we all have some different points of view.


#36 of 44 OFFLINE   Gary OS

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Posted December 01 2009 - 06:43 AM

     Quote:
Originally Posted by Powell&Pressburger 

any TV show no matter when it was shot can look good in HD. Let's say Saturday Night Live from 1978 is never gonna really do much with HD it was shot on video. However classic shows shot on film can be upgraded and can look better. The Prisoner is a good example.

You don't need bright colors etc for a film to look great in HD.

Sometimes it can get frustrating participating in online communities (as opposed to speaking face to face) because one has to qualify statements constantly so as to not be misunderstood.  I'm well aware that it's not just color films/TV that can benefit from Blu-ray and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.  I know there have been some nice looking b/w transfers to HD.  I guess what I'm saying is that what is or isn't a substantial upgrade is in the eye of the beholder.  And I do think newer, color films benefit more than b/w ones.  But to each his own on that point.

I also know that it's not impossible for shows shot on film to get the HD treatment.  But I believe it is more difficult and expensive a proposition.  If I'm wrong on that someone please correct me.  And regardless of all the above, I'm still of the mindset that Blu-ray will not make major inroads into older, b/w TV.  I think a show like The Twilight Zone would be a strong candidate, but that's because of it's cult following more than anything else.  The original Star Trek series has already led the way.  So a BR release of that show wouldn't surprise me in the least.  But my standard dvds, upconverted, look pretty darned good and having seen a couple of examples of b/w Blu-ray I can say pretty definitively for myself that any upgrade to HD wouldn't be substantial enough for me to want to double-dip.

Jeff's point about how Blu-ray may or may not affect SDVD is important and I share his views.  I'm all for "to each his own" as long as the format doesn't immediately crowd out or replace standard def material or make it obsolete in the near future.  But if studios immediately shut down SDVD releases in favor of simply double-dipping the same shows they've just released in the last 5 to 10 years then I'm not in favor of a quick assent for that format.  Having said all that, I doubt that will happen right away so I'm not overly worried.


Gary "great comments all the way around" O.

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#37 of 44 OFFLINE   Rob_Ray

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Posted December 01 2009 - 07:13 AM

With BluRay players getting to be close to $100 and dropping, I’m starting to view BD as not so much a new format as merely an upgrade to an existing format. All BD players play regular DVDs and upscale them in the process, so the worst thing that will happen is that everyone will have to buy a BD player at some point.
 
I don’t even have an HDTV yet and have little interest in any titles released since the 60s. My era is the 20s-50s, including early TV.  But I’ve picked up a BD player to take advantage of the lossless audio on the old classics that are now starting to trickle out and to prepare for the day when I upgrade to HDTV.
 
I guess I’m an optimist, but I don’t see much of a problem. Three things can happen:
 
  1. The two formats co-exist for a while and classic TV titles continue to come out on regular DVD exclusively. Not a problem, but not likely to happen for very long.
  2.  BDs and BD players drop in price to the point that the regular DVD format dies off. If this happens, the DVD market will just morph to the BluRay standard and even the Alpha Videos of the world will convert to BD. Since BD players are backward compatible, I see shows like Father Knows Best possibly having their final seasons released in BD exclusively if regular DVD goes away. They may not get restored, but they’ll just move over to the new standard for release.
  3. Everything goes to digital download and both formats die. That means niche titles like Father Knows Best become even more financially viable due to the reduced overhead involved. Much as I dread it, I fear this is the future.
 
The one thing that won’t happen is the simultaneous release of most niche titles in two formats. The market’s small enough as it is. But if there are enough of us with money in hand wanting classic B&W titles, they’ll generally find a way to market in some format or another.


#38 of 44 OFFLINE   Chris Lockwood

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Posted December 01 2009 - 09:25 AM

What percentage of households who have a video player have Blu-ray? My guess is it's still pretty low, and isn't going to make much difference when it comes to TV on DVD.


#39 of 44 OFFLINE   Jeff Willis

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Posted December 01 2009 - 09:29 AM

Rob, good post & points.  I'm about the same; I'm not really excited about downloading delivery of shows.  I guess one reason is that I presumably would need to upgrade my PC or buy some kind of network "box" that talks to my TV, etc.  I'd have to get educated if/when that day comes but I'm the type that likes to own a studio (ie pressed DVD) physical media on a shelf.  If future downloading would allow the customer to burn their own copy to DVD, that's good.  But if it is received into your residence with a "coded" protection encryption, say, like DirecTV does with their PPV movies (those will "expire" after 24 hrs from your DVR after you have started viewing them), then I'm not in a hurry for another technological advancement.  My Satt Bd aces also tell me that DTV's HD movies that are recorded to your DVR are copy-protected so I can't even burn my own DVD-R for my collection.  I haven't tried that as yet but....geezzz /img/vbsmilies/htf/rolleyes.gif">

I can't disagree with some here that are of the opinion that downloading is the only way we're going to see any kind of "release" of some of these stalled TV shows (example: Hill St Blues additional seasons available on Hulu.com, as one example).  I just can't get excited about it.

One thing that I'm sure about, just me, is that I don't have a desire to view TV on my PC or a hand-held iPhone.  That's ok for some that have to travel frequently and possibly spend a lot of time away from their residence, in airports, etc.  But it's not something that I'm interested in or will buy into for the forseeable future.

Your point on BR continuing older TV/DVD releases brings up a question that I would have about how a show would look on a HD display: You mentioned FKB in an un-restored BR release.  I guess I'd wonder how that would look on my Plasma TV vs the S2 (upconverted) Std release of the same show.  Would it reveal too many inperfections in the BR transfer? 

Since, as far as I know, we don't yet have that available for any online reviews, we'll have to wait & see how this all plays out.

You mentioned BR players getting more cost-friendly.  I agree and as we all know, that was going to start happening eventually.  As a Region-Free guy, it also brings up the BR player issue for overseas BR & Std DVD's.  So I have to look at cost for an R-free BR player which is also getting more affordable (for me) but not there yet.  I refer to a modified player here and not a hacked one.  I realize that this issue is not of interest to some here on the TV/DVD Bd but I'm glad to see that the R-free thinking is getting some support elsewhere.  I noticed that Barrie Maxwell over at the Digital Bits has begun posting a list of classic movies that are available in R2 & R4.

From your #'ed scenarios above, I would obviously pick #1 <br /></span>
<br />
#2: I guess I'll pretend I'm from Missouri here...."show me" <span rel='lightbox'><img class='bbc_img' alt=  I'm not saying it won't happen, I just have to see this trend happening before I'm convinced.

#3: I don't want to think about that one now.  Call me a dinasour.....just me.  And that's coming from a guy that was an early entry into both the VHS and Laserdisc formats.  I just see the Std DVD growth since its arrival as a far more universal format that has penetrated a very large % of worldwide households vs any previous format and, to date, BR.

Bottom line, is that I agree with you that BR is an upgrade and not a new format, at least, that's the way I see it as well as you.  I just have to see a lot of older catalog titles becoming available before I'll enter the BR mkt.

ml1fyo.jpg  "Checkmate King Two, 'Out'" "Combat! A Selmur Production"

 

TV/DVD Collector, mainly 50's thru 90's with a few 2000+ shows.
My 2 all-time favorite TV shows:
"Combat!" & "The Fugitive"
My 2 all-time best blind-buys: "The Fugitive"   "The Donna Reed Show"


#40 of 44 OFFLINE   Jeff Willis

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Posted December 01 2009 - 09:36 AM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

What percentage of households who have a video player have Blu-ray? My guess is it's still pretty low, and isn't going to make much difference when it comes to TV on DVD.
 
Chris, you read my mind :)  I don't have the #'s but from the people I know, it's not a widespread format yet.  I still think one reason that may be the case is that Std DVD penetrated an amazingly large # of homes during the 12+ years that it's been around.  A lot of consumers out there can't yet justify the cost or advantages to entering BR yet.  As is the case with most upgrade formats, there is usually a certain # of consumers that will be the early entries in a format such as BR, and I've been in that group of buyers with previous (LD) formats,  But I'm not in that group this time around, not yet.


ml1fyo.jpg  "Checkmate King Two, 'Out'" "Combat! A Selmur Production"

 

TV/DVD Collector, mainly 50's thru 90's with a few 2000+ shows.
My 2 all-time favorite TV shows:
"Combat!" & "The Fugitive"
My 2 all-time best blind-buys: "The Fugitive"   "The Donna Reed Show"