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Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP


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#1 of 27 OFFLINE   Jamezuva

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Posted January 30 2009 - 05:36 PM

So I'm about to purchase my first ever HDTV and can't make up my mind between these two sets. I mainly will be using it for movies (dvd/blu-ray) and video games. Here are the pros and cons I see of each, but I'd love to hear more input from you all that'll hopefully push me in one direction. I've looked at both sets at stores. One of the concerns I have living in southern CA is earthquakes and I'm wondering whether a mounted set on a TV stand is more stable compared to the tv just sitting on top of a stand. Money isn't a *huge* issue but the price difference is still pretty significant.

Kuro: Smaller screen size, more than double the cost (seen these mainly for ~$3,700 or so) of the Samsung, higher energy use (though from what I read, this doesn't have a significant impact on your electricity bill), potential issues with burn-in (though again, this seems to be a relative non-issue atleast in terms of permanent burn-in), some of the best black levels on the market, able to be mounted, no picture degradation with off-center viewing angles.

Samsung LED DLP: Larger screen size, much cheaper (seen these for ~$1750 or so), lower energy use, no burn-in worries, not able to be mounted, picture degradation with off-center viewing angles (at most, I would be watching from a 35 or so degree angle for regular tv broadcasts from my computer station and I tried to mimic this at the store - there is definitely some degradation, but only mild), don't have to replace bulbs compared with other DLPs

Thanks in advance

#2 of 27 OFFLINE   Patrick Sun

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Posted January 31 2009 - 01:41 AM

As a former plasma owner, I have been going through the scenarios and finally decided what was best for me at this point in my life in terms of viewing habits. You can read about it in this thread:

http://www.hometheat....-abuse-tv.html

In the end, it's about trade-offs, both in picture quality you can live with, and the amount of money you want to sink into a TV to get to a certain level of picture quality, and peace of mind.

But don't dawdle if you are serious about going the DLP LED route because they will be harder to find as most stores are blowing them out, as well as online stores, too. I hope to score a DLP LED set at Fry's or HHGregg after the Super Bowl.
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#3 of 27 OFFLINE   DaveF

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Posted January 31 2009 - 03:09 AM

I think your decision boils down to which is more important to you:
* Cost / Size (DLP)
* Absolute quality (Pioneer)

Every professional reviewer regards the Pioneer Kuro line as having the best picture today. The 6020 & 5020 plasmas are the second best TVs on the market, trailing only their more expensive Elite brothers. And the reviews note that after professional calibration, there is very little difference in picture quality between the non-elite and the Elite models.

Because of this, I bought the 5020, the 50" Kuro.

What I couldn't learn is just how much better "best" is. How noticeable is it compared to the other excellent TVs, like the Panasonic -800U or a Samsung LCD? Is it worth the price premium? Is is better to have a larger screen over a smaller, but higher quality, image? What if you never calibrate, is the "best" any better than another uncalibrated set?

I think it's essentially impossible to get solid information on these practical TV matters. It's also basically worthless to compare TVs at retail stores, except maybe to gauge off-axis viewing. Looking at an LCD in "torch" mode in a brightly lit BestBuy tells you nothing about how it looks at moderate brightness in your living room at night, with the lights off. People complain about plasmas not being bright enough. And sure enough in the store they pale next to the sun-like LCDs. But in my living room, in my normal viewing conditions, my Kuro was too bright, uncomfortably bright, out of the box.

And there's dollars & cents. I was going to wait another year to buy, and maybe get a "second best" Panasonic, but Pioneer slashed prices making the Kuro affordable. DLPs are value monsters. For the price of the 60" Kuro, you can buy two 67" DLPs and a Blu Ray player!(!!!)

(And I'll ignore matters of TV speaker quality, remote control quality, etc. I assume anyone spending $2000+ on a TV never uses its speakers and has the good sense to use a quality universal remote Posted Image)

My decision, which doesn't help you, is that the 50" non-elite Kuro is the best buy today. I'm now hopelessly biased against RPTV. A brother in law has a high-end Mitsubishi DLP from 3 years ago, and the image distortion, though small, is obvious to me. I'd had enough distortion after six years with my CRT. But professional reviews, the few you can find in the past year or two, say good things about DLPs; they're not "bad" choices by any means. You'll have a much larger screen that I have for a few hundred less. There's a lot to be said for that.

So pick your criteria: cost / inch or absolute best quality. Posted Image

#4 of 27 OFFLINE   Jamezuva

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Posted January 31 2009 - 03:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
As a former plasma owner, I have been going through the scenarios and finally decided what was best for me at this point in my life in terms of viewing habits. You can read about it in this thread:

http://www.hometheat....-abuse-tv.html

In the end, it's about trade-offs, both in picture quality you can live with, and the amount of money you want to sink into a TV to get to a certain level of picture quality, and peace of mind.

But don't dawdle if you are serious about going the DLP LED route because they will be harder to find as most stores are blowing them out, as well as online stores, too. I hope to score a DLP LED set at Fry's or HHGregg after the Super Bowl.

Posted Image I actually read that thread as the thread title was so amusing. It definitely seems like as you guys have said, a quality vs size/price type of decision, but the thing that has held up the decision is that the people who own that particular LED claim the picture quality matches pretty much anything a LCD/plasma can do. As suggested, it's hard to compare them in the store especially since the stores wouldn't let me watch any blu-ray content on them. The one concerning thing I saw while watching both the 61 and 67" Samsung LED DLP was that where there a sudden screen transition like during a movie, I would see this diffuse distortion that lasted less than a second I guess as the tv was adjusting to the sudden image change. This didn't happen with every screen transition, but it happened a decent frequency and didn't know if this is just a common thing with DLPs in general or whether there was something wrong with those particular DLPs considering they've been floor models for probably atleast a half year.

#5 of 27 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted January 31 2009 - 03:23 AM

hi guys
the Kuro will have much better black levels.
The samsung (once calibrated) will have better color accuracy.
If you go with the Samsung, strongly consider adding a backlight.
I think this is more of a price vs size issue / thread ?

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#6 of 27 OFFLINE   Ed Moxley

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Posted January 31 2009 - 03:13 PM

I went with a friend today to HH Gregg. My friend bought a new 46" Samsung, series 6, LCD. I asked the salesman if he'd heard that Samsung was going to quit making DLP tvs? He said he hadn't heard that. He said they had just finished building a new plant somewhere (forget where), just for building DLPs. I don't know if he knew what he was talking about.......... I really hope they don't stop.
Samsung HL61A750 (LED DLP)            Onkyo TX-SR805
Oppo BDP-83 Blu ray                                  Polk Audio LSi9
Polk Audio LSiC                                  Sony SS-MB100H
SVS PC12-NSD (Sub)                       ...

#7 of 27 OFFLINE   DaveF

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Posted February 01 2009 - 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen
hi guys
the Kuro will have much better black levels.
The samsung (once calibrated) will have better color accuracy.
If you go with the Samsung, strongly consider adding a backlight.
I think this is more of a price vs size issue / thread ?
Gregg, what are your thoughts on the relative importance of color accuracy vs black level?

#8 of 27 OFFLINE   ManW_TheUncool

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Posted February 01 2009 - 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamezuva
Posted Image I actually read that thread as the thread title was so amusing. It definitely seems like as you guys have said, a quality vs size/price type of decision, but the thing that has held up the decision is that the people who own that particular LED claim the picture quality matches pretty much anything a LCD/plasma can do. As suggested, it's hard to compare them in the store especially since the stores wouldn't let me watch any blu-ray content on them. The one concerning thing I saw while watching both the 61 and 67" Samsung LED DLP was that where there a sudden screen transition like during a movie, I would see this diffuse distortion that lasted less than a second I guess as the tv was adjusting to the sudden image change. This didn't happen with every screen transition, but it happened a decent frequency and didn't know if this is just a common thing with DLPs in general or whether there was something wrong with those particular DLPs considering they've been floor models for probably atleast a half year.

Not sure if you saw my later posts in that thread, but seems that the cost of operating a big plasma in the NYC area can certainly be high based on my recent findings. If the CNet reviews are correct, a circa 60" plasma would consume ~320W more than a Samsung 61" LED DLP -- and I don't think the 67" runs that much more. Here in the NYC area, I expect Con Ed to charge me an avg of nearly ~$0.23/KWH (including taxes) in 2009 -- and it'll probably just keep going up in the future. At 8 hours per day, that ~320W diff would cost an extra ~$215/year on the electric bill in 2009 (and whatever "green" concerns might go w/ that). Obviously, that cost would change depending on hours of viewing. Posted Image

At one point, I thought I'd consider a circa-60" plasma at some point, if I don't get an LED DLP soon. But now, I think I better just get the DLP and forget about plasma for the forseeable future due in part to the high power consumption (even when the upfront price tag comes down) -- the degree of PQ advantages just don't seem worth it to me at least given my set of requirements.

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#9 of 27 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted February 02 2009 - 12:02 AM

depends on the viewing environment.

Black level is much more important if viewing in a totally dark room, if that will not occur then it is of very little importance.

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#10 of 27 OFFLINE   tremojem

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Posted February 02 2009 - 01:33 AM

Some professional reviewers actually use the Kuro Elite as part of their test set-up. Imagine having a "reference" display in your home.

Hands down...if you want the best in picture quality both in black levels, depth, color, shadow detail etc. etc. the list is endless then you only have one choice...Pioneer Kuro Elite.

Remember..."garbage in garbage out". Your source will dictate what you see in the end result. So if you don't have high quality source material then save the money.

Best of luck to you.

#11 of 27 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted February 02 2009 - 02:24 AM

LOL

"Refrence Display" that's good stuff! If you want a reference display, it should be a DLP front projector (a commercial grade one, at that) if we are after "refrence" then you should use what the real theaters use, right?

Sorry I just always get a kick out of the term reference.
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#12 of 27 OFFLINE   tremojem

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Posted February 03 2009 - 03:48 AM

Hey, no problem Brett...thanks for your insightful and valuable contribution. I am always glad to read quality posts that add real value to the discussion and don't, in any way, attack any one for their contribution.

#13 of 27 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted February 03 2009 - 05:29 AM

Trem,

I appreciate your response. I am always glad to voice my opinion in a non confrontational manner and do so without naming anyone in a post.
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#14 of 27 OFFLINE   chris.big.money

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Posted February 03 2009 - 09:23 AM

I'm a sucker for a good plasma *drool* but i have to say in your situation just go for the DLP. You'll be much happier with the larger size and less power consumption.

#15 of 27 OFFLINE   DaveF

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Posted February 03 2009 - 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett DiMichele
If you want a reference display, it should be a DLP front projector
I don't follow front projection. Do consumer DLPs exceed the best consumer direct-view displays?

My guess would be that they couldn't match the best black levels, since RPTV DLP can't and FP DLP is the same technology. I'd guess DLP could provide excellent color accuracy with a 3-chip design. But this is (un)educated guessing Posted Image

#16 of 27 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted February 03 2009 - 01:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF
I don't follow front projection. Do consumer DLPs exceed the best consumer direct-view displays?

My guess would be that they couldn't match the best black levels, since RPTV DLP can't and FP DLP is the same technology. I'd guess DLP could provide excellent color accuracy with a 3-chip design. But this is (un)educated guessing Posted Image


With projection tech, the darker the room the blacker the blacks. Black levels in any DLP technology come from turning the light "off" and using the resulting darkness to make black.

My point above was about the term Reference, it seems Trem took offense to me, poking fun at a word. Someone using a Pioneer Kuro to review other sets does not make it "the" reference, it just makes it their reference.

It's like if I had this big set of $350,000.00 speakers and told you they were "reference" while watching a movie or listening to music, the truth is, if you wanted to be true to the original mastering (reference) we'd be listening to the audio portion on a set of JBL or Mackie studio monitors in most cases.

That's the only point I was trying to make. Trem used the term like everyone should have the Kuro if they want to be faithful to what they are watching. That simply isn't the case. It is however, a great plasma.
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#17 of 27 OFFLINE   tremojem

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Posted February 03 2009 - 11:31 PM

In truth I was merely stating an observation regarding some reviews I have read, where the reviewer stated that the Pro-111FD would now become part of their test set-up and used to compare sources, such as DVD etc. and other displays.

This is not my opinion. I am not a professional.

I did, however, take offense to Brett's post. Sorry, but I am not accustomed to having wordsmiths pick apart my contributions. I am just trying to offer some novice advise and gleam something from others while having fun.

In the future I will be less sensitive, and think longer about what I post, thanks.

Sorry Brett if I was out of place...you meant no harm and I see that now.

#18 of 27 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted February 04 2009 - 12:18 AM

Trem,

No apologies needed. It's hard to convey the authors "tone" in a post, so confusion does take place. I never take anything I post, too seriously and I hope no one else does.

Posted Image
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#19 of 27 OFFLINE   DaveF

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Posted February 04 2009 - 09:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett DiMichele
With projection tech, the darker the room the blacker the blacks. Black levels in any DLP technology come from turning the light "off" and using the resulting darkness to make black
Unfortunately, that's not quite how they work and so ambient room light has nothing to do with what a display can produce, only what we can perceive or measure.

Last I read -- a few years ago, admittedly -- DLPs didn't have 100% light rejection. That is, even for "black", light came out of the projector and reached the screen. This is akin to imperfect blacks from light leakage in LCD projectors.

I have no idea how much projectors have advanced, particularly in their light rejection. (As Gregg noted, the importance of this depends on your room light level -- how you perceive it.) Hoping one day to finish my basement and go FP with 100" screen, I want to hear that Projectors are the kings of all displays.

But I doubt FPs exceed the best direct displays for black level, reasoning that the professional reviewers would go nuts over that and compare every TV to an FP instead of the direct-view, black-level champ du-jour.

#20 of 27 OFFLINE   Michael TLV

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Posted February 04 2009 - 02:19 PM

Greetings

What happens when you project black onto a white screen? It's not black anymore.

Even if the projector projected nothing into the black bar area of the white screen, the screen would not vanish. It is a white wall in a dark room. Light goes off the screen and reflects into the room and then back onto the screen ...

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