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The New 3LCD Sony's


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#1 of 21 Rick Westfall

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Posted July 26 2005 - 01:19 AM

I was checking into this technology now that my DLP experience has been squelched with the rainbow effect. I read all about this on their website, but I'm wondering if anyone knows if the 3LCD format helps minimize the screen door effect that is the thorn in the side of the LCD technology. Personally, now that I've seen the rainbow issue in the DLP, the screen door doesn't bother nearly as much. I'm just curious what you have heard.

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Rick

#2 of 21 ChrisWiggles

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Posted July 26 2005 - 04:13 AM

3LCD is just LCD. LCD has always been using 3 lcd panels. there's nothing special about this, it's just a marketing ploy, because 3-chip DLP is the pinnacle of DLP because you have all these single-chip + colorwheel DLP machines.

#3 of 21 Brian W. Ralston

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Posted July 26 2005 - 06:21 AM

yeah...3LCD is nothing new. It is the same LCD you have been seeing the "screen door effect" on...it is just a new marketing technique to battle the DLP marketing machine which is winning right now.
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#4 of 21 Rick Westfall

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Posted July 26 2005 - 08:08 AM

And this is why I come to forums just like this Posted Image

Thanks for the info

#5 of 21 frankinG

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Posted July 26 2005 - 11:31 AM

Rick. The home theater forums are a popular place to get information for your questions. I just want to clarify a few things.

DLP is not for everyone. If you see rainbows on a 4x projector, you have a very good chance of seeing them on a 5x machine as well. The majority of people do not see them but there are a lot who do. 3 panel LCD has always been the standard out there. This is NOT and I mean NOT a marketing ploy of companies who produce LCD projectors, but a terminology used by some individuals to describe the technology.

Think of it as a fast food chain which describes there burgers as 'juicy burgers ' instead of just burgers. People tend to describe products with features as a description of its features also.

All the projector manufacturers produce DLP and LCD projectors. It would be a conflict of interest within the company to promote 1 type of product as superior to another.

The forums are loaded with people who are biased to another type of technology because of personal preferences. This will always be an issue because of the 'mine is better than yours crowd'

Both types of projector technology has advantages and disadvantages according to the type of viewer the product is intended for. Neither one is PERFECT for everyone.

Modern LCD projectors from panasonic,sanyo and sony are all excellent products which give excellent picture performance, especially for what they cost.

Screen door on a Panasonic 700 model is almost non existant. The smooth screen technology works perfectly to the point where you can literally view the movie from as close as 1.5x the screen width.

I have owned DLP projectors costing over 4 times the price I paid for my current panny 700. I am sensitive to Rainbow effect and HAD to swith to LCD projectors for that reason.

I am in no way bashing DLP as I favor the technology for the average viewer. LCD is for people like yourself who have had problems with DLP projection and need something different.

I previously owned a sharp 12000 model which is a beautiful unit but the problems with my RBE sensitivity forced a change. And this is a 5x projector as well for the colour wheel speed.

You will be THRILLED with any of the modern LCD projectors.

Older LCD projectors did have screen door issues but times have changed

Projector central has an excellent review on the three top LCD models and it will be an eye opener to anyone who has had negative opinions of the older LCD technology.

Posted Image

#6 of 21 ChrisWiggles

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Posted July 26 2005 - 12:03 PM

Quote:
This is NOT and I mean NOT a marketing ploy of companies who produce LCD projectors, but a terminology used by some individuals to describe the technology.

Um, sure it is. They've never felt the need to call LCD projectors "3LCD" ever before, and they've been making them for years. Only very recently, as DLP has claimed a distinct improvement of 3-chip DLP machines over their single-chip little brothers, have LCD makers felt the need to add some flair to the name. My statement before made no judgement on the quality on the machine, only that it is silly to add this "3LCD" terminology all of the sudden. I don't know of *any* single-chip LCD projectors, so why bother with the label all of a sudden. It absolutely is marketing rhetoric. As is obvious in this thread, it seems to have an effect...

#7 of 21 ChrisWiggles

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Posted July 26 2005 - 12:06 PM

I should also add that I avoid single-chip DLP projectors like the plague. I see rainbows on every single one I've ever seen, including the newest ones. My sensitivity is absurd. Posted Image

#8 of 21 Rick Westfall

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Posted July 26 2005 - 01:05 PM

Quote:
This is NOT and I mean NOT a marketing ploy of companies who produce LCD projectors, but a terminology used by some individuals to describe the technology.


The thread was started because I was on the sony website and they were indeed touting the new 3LCD technology as an improvement from their LCD technology. Check out this page (Sony 3LCD Info)...there is one point that they make a big deal about the fact that it uses 3 LCD panels.

Thanks for all the info. I probably will be leaning to the LCD technology since I saw the rainbows on the Mits DLPs. Panny 700 for the projector (future HT room) and a rear projection LCD for the family room....Now which one.........maybe the KDF-E50A10. I have no idea what the PQ is like but the set looks good.

Rick

#9 of 21 frankinG

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Posted July 26 2005 - 03:26 PM

I have never really heard the marketing term of 3 chip or 3 panel LCD as an advertising tool from the manufacturers but will take chris wiggles word that this is true as he is a respected and extremely knowledgable participant on this forum. I guess you learn something new everydayPosted Image

#10 of 21 Paul D G

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Posted July 26 2005 - 07:05 PM

This is of interest to me because my brother, after hearing of my HD TV purchase started looking for one. He's ordered the KDF-E55A10 under the impression it's a 3LCD (ie "the new thing").
http://www.sonystyle....ture-KDFE55A20

Now, I have the KDF-55WF655.
http://www.sonystyle....ductId=1000383

Everything about this 3LCD looks the same as my tv except that I have more inputs on mine.

If you look at the link to the 55WF655 you'll notice that it is advertised as having "3 chip LCD technology".

IIRC he paid roughly what I paid for mine.

So, are we saying he essentially bought a slimmed down version of my TV for a higher price? (argueable since we bought at different stores in different states, and had discounts on both) Should he check the price of the 55WF655 and get that if it's cheaper than the E55A10?

Personally, I'd be pissed if it happened to me.

-paul

#11 of 21 Rick Westfall

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Posted July 26 2005 - 11:59 PM

Quote:
have never really heard the marketing term of 3 chip or 3 panel LCD as an advertising tool from the manufacturers


Franklin,

Did you click on the link I provided in my post about 3LCD? It's a hoot. Maybe they did improve some areas from one model year to the next, but it all because of the 3 LCD panels they use...oh wait...they've been doing that since day one.

Rick

#12 of 21 Rolando

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Posted July 27 2005 - 06:19 AM

SO are there really 3 chip DLP RPTVs out there? from who? what models? or are they just advertising it as the next big thing?
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#13 of 21 Brian W. Ralston

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Posted July 27 2005 - 06:23 AM

Quote:
So, are we saying he essentially bought a slimmed down version of my TV for a higher price? (argueable since we bought at different stores in different states, and had discounts on both) Should he check the price of the 55WF655 and get that if it's cheaper than the E55A10?


The A10 models have the "iris" technology which is basically a shutter of sorts that will control black levels much better. Hence the black levels on these sets is very close if not the same as most DLP sets. I have seen the A10 model in the store and can confirm that the black levels were VERY good on the set. So...the contrast ratio on the new sets is much, MUCH better.
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#14 of 21 frankinG

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Posted July 27 2005 - 11:38 AM

Rick you are correct. I do not frequently visit the manufacturers websites but this is without a doubt sony,s marketing ploy. I visited a few other manufacturers sites and did not come across the same advertising method's. It seems that sony SO FAR is only doing this.Others probably will follow. Actually I feel that it has some merit to it as Sony obviously is aware of some of the weaknesses of DLP technology in it,s present single chip designs which make up the bulk of DLP projector sales, and making sure the general public knows it.

My biggest pet peeve in the industry is with texas instruments and there stronghold on the DLP chips. The technology through some research has been around scince 1992. Yes there have been improvements in the micro mirror devices but how a 3chip lcd can cost over 80% less than a comparable 3 chip DLP projector is beyond my comprehension.

I have seen the insides of most projector models as I work closely with individuals who actually repair them and the optics and inner layout designs seem very similar, except for the colourwheel and motor assembly to drive it. I do suppose that technology costs but this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

I will definitely be in the market for DLP technology once 3 chip designs come down to realistic prices. But for now my 3 chip Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image LCD will have to do.

#15 of 21 Kevin C Brown

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Posted July 27 2005 - 12:55 PM

All LCD rear projection units, and front projectors use 3 LCD chips. They have to due to their slow (vs DLP and plasma) response time.

Most DPL units use a single chip. There are 3 chip systems out there, but yes, they are more expensive.

The optics are similar, but the DLP chip itself is a lot more expensive than an LCD chip. The DLP chip has a physical micro-mirror for each pixel. The LCD chip is a physically passive component. The LCD material changes transparency depending on the voltage across it. DLP chips are more expensive due to yield issues with trying to get chips with all (or most) of the up to (or more than) 1 million little mirrors to actually function correctly.

But obviously, due to the single chip in most DLP systems, they need the color wheel to generate the three colors from one chip, and some people can see rainbows with that.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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#16 of 21 frankinG

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Posted July 27 2005 - 01:12 PM

Kevin does put some perspective on the topic. I am still amazed at how DLP chips are manufactured with the high reliability and long life span. Posted Image

#17 of 21 Rick Westfall

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Posted July 27 2005 - 01:14 PM

So now that we have nailed down that 3LCD is just regular ol' LCD, I'm going to follow a rabbit trail. Is it true that over time, LCD televisions degrade? I understand that DLP sets don't...just need a bulb replacement.

Thanks
Rick

#18 of 21 frankinG

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Posted July 27 2005 - 01:54 PM

DLP is reported to have a longer life span but how much longer no one really knows for sure. Texas instruments did do research on this and concluded that DMD chips could be run 24-7 for periods up to 25 years with low failure rates. We have had presentation projectors over 10 years old in our business which were run about 7 hours a day continuously and never noticed anything wrong with them. And they were all LCD units. But who really knows.Posted Image

#19 of 21 ChrisWiggles

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Posted July 27 2005 - 08:14 PM

I don't know of any 3-chip DLP RPTVs, but 3-chip DLP FPs are about $30K. I think there are some cheaper models on the horizon, but still looking at serious cash.

#20 of 21 Kevin C Brown

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Posted July 28 2005 - 12:41 PM

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Posted Image I know there are *a lot* of little companies right now trying to come up with a competitive product to TI's DLP. Just a matter of time... Basically, everyone sees how much money TI is making, and they want some of the action too.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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