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2-3 Pulldown for Toshiba H series


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#1 of 69 OFFLINE   Gary Merson

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Posted May 08 2001 - 11:09 AM

To pick up from a previous topic, if you have a Toshiba H series and it was produced before 1/21/01, you can get it updated by contacting Toshiba customer service.

#2 of 69 OFFLINE   Michael St. Clair

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Posted May 08 2001 - 11:16 AM

Does this automatically detect film sources and only use the 3:2 pulldown when the source is film? Does this perform doubling faster than, say, an iScan? That is, is lip sync lag reduced over an external doubler? Does this noticeably improve the visual quality of film-sourced 4:3 480i sources (like movies and film-shot comedies and dramas on cable and satellite television) when windowboxed as an unstretched, unzoomed image with grey side bars? Have you seen the "Star Trek: Insurrection" acid test on one of these sets? Thanks for the update, Gary.

#3 of 69 OFFLINE   James FT

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Posted May 08 2001 - 01:27 PM

Gary can I be so bold to ask where you got your information?are you certain about the information. According to Toshiba Canada all the H series TV are manufactured with 3-2 pulldown It was the previous sets the x series that did not have the 3-2,however the head of the service department is in Tennesse and will be back until Monday and he will confirm that with me. Is there something on the Toshiba web site?

#4 of 69 OFFLINE   Paul W

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Posted May 08 2001 - 03:17 PM

Can you please elaborate what this is about? Should I be concerned if I have a progressive scan DVD (which I assume does the 3:2 pulldown instead of the TV)?

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#5 of 69 OFFLINE   Michael St. Clair

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Posted May 08 2001 - 07:51 PM

Paul, If you have a progressive DVD player (except for the lame Pioneer entry-level progressive players) you have 3:2 pulldown. The only reason you would care about having 3:2 pulldown in the set or an external doubler is if you care about how film-sourced (including most TV shows) cable, satellite, VHS, and of course Laserdisc sources look on your set.

#6 of 69 OFFLINE   Mike I

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Posted May 09 2001 - 03:26 AM

A progressive scan dvd player will give you a superior picture to a sets internal line double, evan if the sets line doubler does a 3.2 pull down... ------------------

#7 of 69 OFFLINE   Michael St. Clair

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Posted May 09 2001 - 05:49 AM

Mike's basically right.

Assuming that the DVD player and the doubler use the same chipset family for doubling, you want the chipset inside of the player. Some chipsets, including those used inside of progressive players, have problems with some source material.

If you buy a set with a good 3:2 doubler and you already have a DVD player, you might want to hang onto your existing player for a while while high-end players get even better and cheaper.

Especially if you are lucky enough to own a dvd player without chroma bugs.

Though, frankly, the best decision may be to skip all the progressive players and buy this this fall!

#8 of 69 OFFLINE   Michael Galloway

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Posted May 09 2001 - 12:22 PM

There is/was an interesting thread on the avsforum regarding this issue. here is the url:
http://www.avsforum....TML/013681.html


-- michael

#9 of 69 OFFLINE   Dave Miller

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Posted May 10 2001 - 10:12 AM

Gary, This is specifically directed to you. Over the past couple of days, I have noticed that you posted this information in another forum besides HTF. When I noticed your claim, I immediately emailed Toshiba Customer support. FYI, here's my email:
Quote:
I recently purchased a beautiful Toshiba 65H80 and I love it. It is my understanding that the only H80 models that perform 2:3 pulldown are the ones manufactured after 1/21/01. My set was manufactured in October 2000. How do I go about getting an upgrade from you that would allow my set to do the 2:3 detection?
FYI, here's the response I just received:
Quote:
None of our TV models use 3:2 pulldown, which is a process used by DVD players to convert 24 frames per second (fps) film sources to 30 fps. Any signal connected to a NTSC TV must already be in 30fps, therefore, it is not necessary for any TV to incorporate 3:2 pulldown. Customer Solutions Center
Sounds like they are pretty sure of themselves, but why are we getting two different messages? They are not just different messages, but polar opposite messages. If a company is providing an upgrade, why would customer support deny that the upgrade you are claiming is available or even necessary. With their reply to my email, it seems this issue is more than just a misinformed customer support agent. They are denying the validity of your claim. I hope you don't feel as if I'm attacking you, I'm just curious what your response is. Peace, DM
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#10 of 69 OFFLINE   Michael Galloway

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Posted May 10 2001 - 01:40 PM

i guess i have a related question: has anyone with a new 40H80 or other new tosh actually verified that is does/does not do the pulldown? -- michael

#11 of 69 OFFLINE   GlennH

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Posted May 10 2001 - 08:52 PM


Quote:






None of our TV models use 3:2 pulldown, which is a process used by DVD players to convert 24 frames per second (fps) film sources to 30 fps. Any signal connected to a NTSC TV must already be in 30fps, therefore, it is not necessary for any TV to incorporate 3:2 pulldown.

Customer Solutions Center




Somebody better tell Pioneer about that so they can stop making the Elites with 3:2 pulldown and save a little money. Posted Image

This reply is just blatantly wrong. But I'm not shocked they sent it out anyway. Toshiba customer "service" can be a tower of misinformation.

HDTVs have built-in line doublers (de-interlacers) to convert "i" to "p" (e.g., 480i to 480p) -- for any source, not just DVD. Ones that employ 3:2 pulldown do a better job (i.e., less artifacts) with film-based (24 fps) source material.



#12 of 69 OFFLINE   Bill Broderick

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Posted May 11 2001 - 06:19 AM

James & Dave, Gary writes hardware reviews for a couple of different magazines as well as being an ISF technician. As a hardware reviewer, Gary had direct contacts with the manufacturers of the hardware that he reviews. Gary performed the calibration on my Toshiba TW56X81, and I can attest that he has he has a relationship with Toshiba. There was a problem with my TV that was not calibration related. Gary picked up my phone and called the Toshiba Customer Service director in Tennessee about the problem. The Toshiba CS manager then arranged to have someone from one of their preferred repair shops come out to Long Island from New Jersey to service my set. I can tell you that when Gary posts something like the post that he has made, you can be assured that this information has come directly from Toshiba. He is not about to harm his reputation by reporting rumors. Personally, I can say that I appreciate the fact that, unlike other writers, Gary is willing share information like this with the various forums in which he participates. When he does share this kind of information, he doesn't deserve the kind of responses that he has received here and on other forums. ------------------

#13 of 69 OFFLINE   Stephen Tu

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Posted May 11 2001 - 01:24 PM

Quote:
Any signal connected to a NTSC TV must already be in 30fps, therefore, it is not necessary for any TV to incorporate 3:2 pulldown. Customer Solutions Center
Quote:
This reply is just blatantly wrong.
I don't think it's blatantly wrong; in fact it's correct IMO. "3:2 pulldown" is supposed to refer to the transformation of 24 frame/sec to 60 field/sec, not the inverse process. So they are right, the various sources do it already so 3:2 pulldown isn't necessary. What we should call it is "3:2 pulldown detection", so the inverse process, film-mode deinterlacing (re-interleaving) can be done.

#14 of 69 OFFLINE   James FT

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Posted May 11 2001 - 04:11 PM

This topic has created many differing opinions and I still have not received an answer from Gary.My 56H80 performs well with dvd on a non progressive scan Toshiba player and on a vhs tape player. Hopefully by Monday of next week I will have contacted the top technician or the manager at Toshiba Canada whom I have known for the past 15 years and we can put this controversy to rest. I know by speaking to customers service agents at Toshiba here in Canada they just revert to the previously mentioned persons who were out of town at Tennessee last week. I will let the members know the results

#15 of 69 OFFLINE   GlennH

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Posted May 14 2001 - 07:03 AM

Quote:
What we should call it is "3:2 pulldown detection", so the inverse process, film-mode deinterlacing (re-interleaving) can be done.
You are correct. We should be talking about the set detecting film-based sources and properly reconstructing the frames for the best video quality. But semantics aside, the statement from Toshiba sidesteps the issue. Their misleading reply implies that there is no need for this circuitry in any TV, when in fact it makes a great deal of difference when using an interlaced video source. I did side-by-side comparisons of the 57" Sony XBR widescreen and the 58" Pioneer Elite 610 (which I ended up buying) playing the same interlaced DVD source. I can tell you there was a definite difference. The Sony (with it's DRC) was full of twinkling artifacts in certain scenes while the Elite's picture was rock-solid. I realize that the Sony is also very good with a progressive scan DVD player as source. Given an interlaced source it is just wrong to say that it isn't necessary for any TV to include this feature.

#16 of 69 OFFLINE   MickeS

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Posted May 15 2001 - 12:55 PM

quote:
You are correct. We should be talking about the set detecting film-based sources and properly reconstructing the frames for the best video quality. [/quote] Which is exactly why Gary wrote "2-3 Pulldown" not 3:2 pulldown. A set has "2:3 pulldown" or "3:2 pulldown detection", not "3:2 pulldown", as far as I know. The reply from Toshiba seems correct to me. /Mike
/Mike

#17 of 69 OFFLINE   GlennH

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Posted May 15 2001 - 01:29 PM

Okay, why don't we stop overanalyzing the precise words and syntax. The reply by Toshiba may be technically correct given the wording of the question, but was the reply at all helpful? Isn't it obvious what the real question was? How did Toshiba shed any light on the real issue? I don't think this qualifies as good "customer service."

#18 of 69 OFFLINE   MickeS

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Posted May 15 2001 - 02:03 PM

You're right, the customer service reply wasn't helpful at all, and did not address the real issue. I would call or e-mail them again and ask for clarification on the central issue, whether the date 1/21 is significant and if so how you should go about to get an upgrade. I too would appreciate input from Gary on this. /Mike
/Mike

#19 of 69 OFFLINE   Stephen Tu

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Posted May 15 2001 - 06:17 PM

In the video world 2-3 pulldown and 3-2 pulldown are often used interchangeably. Specify "detection" or "film-mode deinterlacing" and there is no confusion. Yes, it's all semantics. But the point of the matter is that the average customer service rep needs all the help we can give them. It's easier to get a straight answer from them if we word it in a way such that it's difficult for them to get more confused than they already are.

#20 of 69 OFFLINE   James FT

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Posted May 18 2001 - 12:46 PM

I just spoke to the service manager at Toshiba Canada Tom Kennedy who was their top gun service technician for the past 20 years and he informed that the Toshiba H series television do not have a 3-2 pulldown or 2-3 pulldown. He would be very interested to know the source of the information supplied to Gary Gary Merson so that they can discuss and resolve the issue. He agrees with the information that was supplied by their customer solution centre that was published on a previous thread on May 10/2001 by Glen Heberle there is no 3-2 or a 2-3 pulldown on Toshiba sets. There is no modification that he is aware of to update the sets manufactured previous to January 21/2001 to include a 3-2 pulldown. If he finds out anything to the contrary he will notify me.


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