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I'm so disappointed in DVD quality ...


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#1 of 240 OFFLINE   Colton

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Posted June 16 2004 - 03:30 AM

Recently, I've noticed some horrible encoding from new original DVDs. My wife and I rented Master & Commander - and whenever there was fog - you can see the pixelation of the mist within the fog. Kinda looked as if the picture was converted to 256 colors. Very noticeable. Now I seem to find more and more pixelation in DVD movies than before during dark or smoke/foggy scenes. Again, these are from original DVD discs - not backups.

- Colton

#2 of 240 OFFLINE   Brian Kidd

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Posted June 16 2004 - 03:37 AM

MPEG2 is not very good at handling foggy/smoky scenes. It's just a shortcoming of the codec. Not much to be done about it.
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#3 of 240 OFFLINE   Doug_L

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Posted June 16 2004 - 06:10 AM

Colton, what kind of a set-up are you using? Can you specify your DVD player, viewing device, and how they are connected?

Not being familiar with this disc in particular, I'm wondering if it could be an issue with your eqiupment.

Just a thought.

#4 of 240 OFFLINE   JonZ

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Posted June 16 2004 - 06:43 AM

Ive never had a problem like this with my Sony or Pioneer players.

Not with smoke,fog,water,fire,anything.

#5 of 240 OFFLINE   Scott Kimball

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Posted June 16 2004 - 07:05 AM

Is your display properly calibrated?

Blocking artifacts are much more visible on displays with incorrect brightness / contrast settings.

-Scott

#6 of 240 OFFLINE   Dennis Pagoulatos

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Posted June 16 2004 - 07:14 AM

It's true that an improperly calibrated display will show compression artifacts more prominently, but lets not forget that M&C is a lousy, soft, muddy transfer, so even on a properly calibrated display...like say an 83" front projection screen, artifacting is quite apparent in the scenes he mentions.

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#7 of 240 OFFLINE   Jeff

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Posted June 16 2004 - 08:49 AM

I don't see how an HT system that is not properly setup can reveal pixilation. I mean if it's there, it's there. If you're implying that his TV needs to be calibrated in order to not see it, then basically what you're saying is that there is a way to mask the pixilation.

I haven't seen Master & Commander but I will say Colton & Brian are correct. If a DVD is not properly authored or if there is too much on it by way of extras or DTS, then smoky or foggy scenes can reveal compression artifacts and thus look really bad in some cases.

I'll never forget when I first rented the DVD Finding Forrester. That was the day that I discovered the smoky/foggy problem. This movie has smoky scenes throughout, which essentially packs a lot more information in to the DVD. Not only was there pixilation in the smoky scenes but the whole movie was riddled with it. I could see these gradient patterns on the walls and on the furniture, etc. I might not have noticed this if it wasn't for the fact that I went up near my TV to get something. That's when I saw it. But then I was so tuned in to it, I could see it from my viewing position. At the time, I had a Panasonic RV-80 DVD player. This was considered the best non progressive player on the market and I thought something went wrong with it. I borrowed a DVD player from a friend and even "temporarily" bought one from a store. Anyway, both those players revealed the same thing, so that was my first lesson in to the limitations of MPEG 2.

It really depends on the display as well. My Sony Wega is very revealing but some RPTV's, for example just don't show the level of detail needed to see these flaws. I don't know what it would look like on LCD or Plasma.

In any case, whether you see it or not, it's there in many DVD's. Star Trek First Contact is a DVD that has no foggy/smoky scenes but is riddled with compression artifacts. All you have to do is FF at a slow speed and you can see the compression artifacts all over the screen.


Jeff

#8 of 240 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted June 16 2004 - 08:58 AM

I have seen M&C and seen no artifacts.

I have a pretty decent player (Pana 951) so
I don't tend to see these sort of abnormalties.

As others have said, a lot of what you see is
based on your TV display and type of DVD player
you are using.

Ronald J Epstein
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#9 of 240 OFFLINE   Jeff

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Posted June 16 2004 - 10:14 AM

Ron, I don't think there are any DVD players that will induce artifacting/pixilation. Even the cheapest one shouldn't do that. I bet people would say there are no artifacts on Finding Forrester or ST: First Contact, but they are there. Posted Image


Jeff

#10 of 240 OFFLINE   Nils Luehrmann

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Posted June 16 2004 - 10:37 AM

Quote:
I don't think there are any DVD players that will induce artifacting/pixilation.
Not only can players do this, but so can scalers, interpolators, displays, and cables.

I saw very little artificial artifacting, and no pixilation with my copy of M&C on my 96" DLP FP system with DCDi processing (v.2222) and average quality DVD player (Panny DV-C603) over component DIY cable.

While there are certainly plenty of examples of below average quality DVD presentations with very poor transfers, overall I have found the quality of recent DVDs to be far greater than in past years and in fact I am very impressed how much DVD producers are pushing the envelope of any otherwise archaic and limited compression standard.

#11 of 240 OFFLINE   Paul_Scott

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Posted June 16 2004 - 10:56 AM

i didn't seen any problems with M&C either (HT1000 fed by a panasonic rp56 via rgb breakout cables projecting about 70" wide).

i would also mention that i was extremely impresed by MGMs Dead Like Me season set that was released yesterday.
pic quality is incredible for the most part.

there is a lot of life left in standard dvd res.

#12 of 240 OFFLINE   Jeff

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Posted June 16 2004 - 12:58 PM

Well I know my TV and the 10+ DVD players I have owned/tried are not the culprit with the two DVD's I mentioned above. Otherwise I'd get this on all DVD's. And you have to realize, I'm talking compression artifacts here. I also agree that most of todays DVD's don't exibit such problems, but some do. I also find it interesting that Colton has seen this on a title that has mist/fog. I'll have to rent this one and see.

Colton: Can you give me a chapter and/or time where you are seeing this? Do you still have your rental copy?

Thanks,

Jeff

#13 of 240 OFFLINE   PerryD

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Posted June 16 2004 - 01:43 PM

The reason calibration is important is that the encoding process relies on the knowledge that you can't see black. Once the image goes to black, the DVD may not differenciate between black and the darker shades of blacker-than-black. With the brightness cranked up, you'll see pixelation in the picture. With mist and fog, the issue may also be with sharpness (should be off or near off) which may emphasize the graduations of the colors of the mist.

#14 of 240 OFFLINE   Ed St. Clair

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Posted June 16 2004 - 01:58 PM

Quote:
I don't see how an HT system that is not properly setup can reveal pixilation.
Jeff,
A "not properly" setup system can reveal pixilation.
A "properly" setup system can reveal pixilation.
"Pixilation" can also be introduced from other eqiupment than the source.
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

#15 of 240 OFFLINE   Ed St. Clair

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Posted June 16 2004 - 02:01 PM

Colton,
Can I ask what DVD's you WERE pleased with?
Before these "new original DVDs", made you lose faith in the format.
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

#16 of 240 OFFLINE   Colton

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Posted June 16 2004 - 03:30 AM

Recently, I've noticed some horrible encoding from new original DVDs. My wife and I rented Master & Commander - and whenever there was fog - you can see the pixelation of the mist within the fog. Kinda looked as if the picture was converted to 256 colors. Very noticeable. Now I seem to find more and more pixelation in DVD movies than before during dark or smoke/foggy scenes. Again, these are from original DVD discs - not backups.

- Colton

#17 of 240 OFFLINE   Brian Kidd

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Posted June 16 2004 - 03:37 AM

MPEG2 is not very good at handling foggy/smoky scenes. It's just a shortcoming of the codec. Not much to be done about it.
---------------------------------------------
Support Film Preservation before it's too late!
---------------------------------------------

#18 of 240 OFFLINE   Doug_L

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Posted June 16 2004 - 06:10 AM

Colton, what kind of a set-up are you using? Can you specify your DVD player, viewing device, and how they are connected?

Not being familiar with this disc in particular, I'm wondering if it could be an issue with your eqiupment.

Just a thought.

#19 of 240 OFFLINE   JonZ

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Posted June 16 2004 - 06:43 AM

Ive never had a problem like this with my Sony or Pioneer players.

Not with smoke,fog,water,fire,anything.

#20 of 240 OFFLINE   Scott Kimball

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Posted June 16 2004 - 07:05 AM

Is your display properly calibrated?

Blocking artifacts are much more visible on displays with incorrect brightness / contrast settings.

-Scott





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