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interesting problem with hi-res


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13 replies to this topic

#1 of 14 OFFLINE   John-Miles

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Posted March 31 2003 - 03:29 AM

the general public ie J6P will decide if Hi-Res survives, but J6P dosent ahve the gear to play it properly, i was just surfing the internet and reading reviews on a disc i own, and a number of people were saying that the disc lacked power and it wasent loud enough and they wished they had headphones designed for that format.... and it reallygot me thinking how many of these people even ahve receivers or amps that can drive their speakers at decent levels with all channels driven?

Dont get me wrong I am not saying anythign bad about HTiB's and such, theya re great for bringing things to the mass market, but in my experience most of the lower end receivers and such have severe drop offs in power with all channels driven, and lets be hoenst movies do not use the rear channels as much (in general) as music does when played in surround. so how many of these people are suffering from equipment not being able to handle the volume they want, yet they assume it is the disc that is the problem because they dont knwo that their receiver will drop off its power with all channels driven as opposed to stereo.

just some thoughts that struck me today, any comments?

*and yes i am becoming an elitest ba**ard, but really I'm ok with that Posted Image *
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#2 of 14 OFFLINE   Philip Hamm

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Posted March 31 2003 - 04:09 AM

You're operating under the (IMO false) assumption that the hi-rez formats are intended to one day replace CD. It is not the case. Whether the hi-rez formats survive or not has nothing to do with how "Joe six-pack" percieves them. They're going to be like the LaserDisc format was; a high end niche format that enthusiasts love and everyday people could care less about.
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#3 of 14 OFFLINE   Phil A

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Posted March 31 2003 - 04:09 AM

John, you are absolutely right. That's why the future of SACD, if it is to make it, is in hybrids price around the same as regular CDs. For DVD-A, they have also announced hybrids and if they are to be mainstream as well, they need a similar pricing structure. As it is people complain about CD pricing and if it is not priced at about that point it won't stand much of a chance. The average buyer under the above circumstances will at least be getting stuff they can play w/o an extra hit in the wallet and will still not likely hear most of the benefits on many systems.

#4 of 14 OFFLINE   LanceJ

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Posted March 31 2003 - 04:51 AM

If dvd-audio stays a niche market that is O.K. with me. I'm willing to pay up to $20 a disc because: it is new technology using highly accurate circuitry (the recording end); it makes a big difference in the listening experience; & there aren't a lot of them. In other words this a PREMIUM format and a higher cost is a natural thing.

IMO people whining that they cost too much (and sacd's too) are living in dreamland. How come so many people these days feel they "deserve" low prices on everything???

I just want dvd-audio to stick around period. I would like Regular Joes to buy them too, but ultimately I don't care what they think about hi-res.

LJ

#5 of 14 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted March 31 2003 - 05:54 AM

John, low-end people won't know or care if they get the highest performance possible if they even do adopt M/C music. They won't care if their home theatre in a box is bass shy or whatever. As long as music is coming out of all the speakers they will be impressed. They're not ever going to pay the curent prices of software or same in indexed dollars in some future year if SACD and DVD-A even last. The hi-rez future is so dim that you don't have to wear shades.Posted Image Best wishes!
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#6 of 14 OFFLINE   Rich Malloy

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Posted March 31 2003 - 06:23 AM

[quote] the general public ie J6P will decide if Hi-Res survives [quote] I disagree with your premise.

Edit: I see I'm not the only one! Posted Image
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#7 of 14 OFFLINE   Mike Broadman

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Posted March 31 2003 - 06:25 AM

[quote] the general public ie J6P will decide if Hi-Res survives [quote]

I question this premise (nevermind my distaste for the term
"J6P"). High-priced audio equipment and expensive collector's vinyl is relegated to the "audiophile" or music nut, a niche market. Can high-res not stick to targeting the same audience, the very audience that would actually about this stuff?

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#8 of 14 OFFLINE   Chris_Eff

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Posted March 31 2003 - 06:49 AM

I am glad that J6P is joining the MC/HR music bandwagon. That makes things cheaper for someone like me who can appreciate the difference of them on my low to mid (but someday really hopes it will be a high end) system but can't really afford to go too crazy with it. The more people that jump on will drive the cost down just like with DVD, I can not believe what I can buy now compared to a few years ago. I know that it will bring some negative such as mass market music but that is a small price so that everyone can enjoy the benefits that these formats provide.
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#9 of 14 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted March 31 2003 - 07:24 AM

[quote] I question this premise (nevermind my distaste for the term
"J6P"). [quote] I find it quite ironic that the term is most often used by "Joe Six-Pack" himself. Posted Image

If the general public does adopt either "Hi-Rez" format, it will have nothing at all with resolution (sound quality), it'll be the multichannel aspect, something that can hit them in the head. Remember, this is the same general public that dumped their LP's for the sonic nirvana of the CD.
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#10 of 14 OFFLINE   Rich Malloy

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Posted March 31 2003 - 07:57 AM

But also remember that this is the same general public that listens to DVDs through their TV speakers. There seems to be a notion current on this forum that every household with a DVD player is also setup for multichannel music, but I can assure you this is not the case. Nearly everyone I know has a DVD player, but only a handful have surround systems (and only a teensy fraction of those have non-HT-in-a-box systems).
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#11 of 14 OFFLINE   Brian Perry

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Posted March 31 2003 - 08:26 AM

[quote] Remember, this is the same general public that dumped their LP's for the sonic nirvana of the CD. [quote]
However, people tend to gloss over the fact that CDs offered so much more than LP, it wasn't a contest. Even if one believes vinyl sounds better than the best redbook (which I still dispute), the CD won people over with:

Random access to tracks
Programming and repeating of tracks
Longer playing time (74-80 minutes) without interruption
Indefinite lifespan (no wear and tear)
Portability (Walkman, etc.)
etc.

Let's face it -- the CD was an amazing accomplishment for its time, and may have been made too good, if that's possible. Even if low-res MP3s weren't exploding like they are now, I don't believe the hi-rez formats would be taking hold. And none of this even addresses the original poster's point, which seems to be that most people don't have equipment that can realize the benefits of DVD-A or SACD. I remember the early days of CD when people talked about needing better amps, speakers, etc. to appreciate the better dynamic range of CD. You don't hear much of that, though, for hi-rez. You don't hear about needing an amp with 120 dB S/N ratio or a player that holds jitter to 8 picoseconds for 24-bit resolution. Suddenly we're expected to believe that all you need is to buy the new hi-rez software and a $200 SACD player and your system will come alive, even though redbook CDs are now purposefully bastardized with compression to make them "louder"!

I am not afraid of technology nor do I wish to see CD be considered the high watermark of consumer playback; I just wish these companies (manufacturers and studios) would settle on a standard and quit with the BS.

#12 of 14 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted March 31 2003 - 09:34 AM

[quote] I remember the early days of CD when people talked about needing better amps, speakers, etc. to appreciate the better dynamic range of CD. [quote]
Ahh, yes, "digital-ready". Posted Image
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#13 of 14 OFFLINE   LanceJ

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Posted March 31 2003 - 09:49 AM

For most people, the CD sounded much better on their low-to-mid-fi systems--than their typically crappy plastic tonearm/ceramic cartridge record changer. If you happened to own a revealing system, then maybe CDs didn't sound better (especially the ones that incorrectly used RIAA equalized master tapes as their source--those sounded NASTY).

And of course, CDs are much easier to handle & do last much, much longer than vinyl. To me, this aspect is a huge advantage over LPs (and I say this as I wait for JandR Music World to deliver my new turntable). Playing music with vinyl is certainly a more hands-on & "organic" experience than CD or dvd-a/sacd, in turn giving it a certain mystique. But the sound from many modern CDs is excellent IMO. And after hearing my DV-656A playback my "Fragile" and Linda Ronstadt dvd-audios with no high-frequency harshness whatsover and the smallest details reproduced clearly, this puts the LP's disconcerting pops/crackles & unwanted inner-groove & euphonic distortions in perspective.

LJ

#14 of 14 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted March 31 2003 - 10:12 AM

I have some really good-sounding CD's, but I mainly use them for the reasons Brian listed above, especially in the car, and not to enjoy the sound per se (although there are many that are very happy with it, no doubt about it). SACD, in my experience, can be on par with good vinyl and you get MC to boot.
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