Recommendations on $500 CD player DACs important (1 Viewer)

[Mike_Ch]

The CD6000 is based on the Marantz of the same name which does indeed have variable outputs.
I don't think that connecting the Heart to the amp directly is such a good idea. Why? Well, I was thinking of doing the same thing with a Marantz CD6000KI, but after some research @ AA you'll find that:
1. As you lower the volume on the cd player, you are actually decreasing the resolution of the 16-bit signal off cd, something like 1bit per 3db decrease? I'm not completely sure of the figures so don't quote me on it, would be best to check out Audio Asylum for that. But definitely a decrease in sound quality at the levels considered normal since the volume control is done in the digital domain and NOT analog.
2. The last volume used is *NOT* remembered when you turn the cd player on, so that unless you manually turn the volume down with the remote after you turn the player on each time, a hot signal @ max volume will go straight to your speakers and fry them for sure. And it is easy to forget to do this, believe me
3. The volume control is not very good quality to begin with.
A much better bet would be the Creek passive you mentioned. It even has a remote
Cheers,
Mike

 

[KeithH]

Mike, so I assume that you leave the volume on the Marantz player set to max and then use the Creek component to control volume. Is that correct? I also assume that the Creek piece is like a pre-amp, except that it lacks switching of sources. I understand what you are saying about problems with adjusting the volume on the player itself, but are the advantages of going from a CD player directly to a power amp at all lost in going through the Creek component? I always thought the idea was to shorten the path of those delicate analog signals. If one has to use the Creek component in the middle of the signal chain, could that be an indicator that the Marantz player is not the right one to use when wanting to bypass a pre-amp? In other words, would certain players work better than the Marantz player for direct connection to a power amp such that the Creek component wouldn't be necessary?

 

[Scott H]

Keith,

I looked into this yesterday and Mike is correct regarding the output level (not voltage) on these Marantz players. You definitely want to leave them at maximum. They don't use pots so they remove bits to lower the level. However, I can't imagine that the maximum level would damage anything as it should be comparable to plugging any cdp directly into an amp, which is common practice in reviewing pre's to make comparisons - in other words, I think maximum output level equals normal output level here.

Regarding the Creek stuff... The Creek OBH-10 and OBH-12 are technically not pre-amps but passive volume controls. They add no gain. So, all the way up on the volume equals a direct cdp to amp connection minus cable effects etc. They are both remote controlled. The OBH-10 has no switching, the OBH-12 allows for switching between two source inputs into a single output. Thus the OBH-12 is attractive for incorporating a two-channel and HT system. The Creek passives are made in the UK, relatively inexpensive, and Stereophile recommended, though there are many more expensive and esoteric passives available, as I'm sure you know.

Actually, it appears to me that the Marantz players are excellent choices to use with passives like the Creek offerings, because of their output voltage. 2.5v is a little higher than normal (in my experience most are around 2v), which can be a good thing when using a passive. The main variables when considering a passive are the output voltage of the source and the input sensitivity of the amp. That 2.5v will likely benefit the dynamics when reducing the gain at the passive volume. Also, the Marantz output voltage is adjustable by soldering bridges (instructions are at the Ah! Hi Fi site), so you can go hotter.

You are definitely correct that a direct cdp to amp connection, obviously the shortest signal path, would be ideal (unless you really do wish to color the sound), hence my momentary excitement yesterday about the Marantz/Ah! output level control... But, use of a passive like the Creek will still result in a far shorter and more pure signal path than any conventional pre-amp, and of course allow for gain control and, in this instance, the convenience of a remote control (volume/source/mute).

 

[KeithH]

Scott, thanks for the info. on the Creek units. I agree that using one of them would amount to a better signal path than a pre-amp in many cases. Should I ever decide to run my Ah! into my NAD C 270 power amp, I will consider the Creek OBH-12. The C 270 is biamped with the NAD C 370 integrated amp, so I haven't tried running a CD player directly into the former.

 

[Mike_Ch]

The Creek is fantastic for simple (only 1/2 source) systems (since all it is is an Alps volume pot connected to 2 line-level outputs with no gain-stage and no power needed), and FWIW, earned a 5-star review from UK mag "What hi-fi".
Regarding the comment I made about damage, perhaps I was being a bit exaggerated since I've had the unfortunate experience of replacing blown-drivers
The max output level with a direct-to-amp connection will have all to do with the output voltage of the analog outs from the cdp (in practice the 2.5V on the Marantz is more like 2.1V according to a Hi-fi choice tech review), the gain structure of your power amp, and the sensitivity of your speakers. For me personally, with a Rotel amp and 90db Tannoy speakers, the SPL's I was getting from the 2V output of my cd source was significantly higher than normal. If you're not worried about voiding the warranty (although I think Ah! can do it factory direct with warranty intact), increasing output voltage seems like a good idea.
Keith, after some reading, I believe that only really top-notch cdp's do integral volume control well (most have an *analog* volume control included). Best examples would probably be Cary (303/306) and Wadia.
Cheers,
Mike

 

[Dennis B]

John,

Marantz is coming up with a new "affordable" CD/SACD player, with HDAMs and everything, the SA-8260, MSRP=$1099, supposed to share most of the SA-1/SA-14 features. I know it's above what you expected to pay, but who knows, just throwing in another option.

 

[KeithH]

Mike_Ch, thanks for the good information. As I said, I might consider the Creek unit should I decide to try the Ah! with my NAD power amp. It would be interesting to hear that set-up. Still, I like the way my system sounds using my NAD integrated amp's pre-amp section in a biamped configuration.

 

[John Royster]

Thanks again for all the info Keith and Scott. I've got a lot to digest, and even more to listen.

Anybody have any thoughts on cleaning the transport? maybe greasing the mechanism - white lithium grease?

 

[Kevin_Breeze]

Scott, I found the negative review of the Cambridge Audio D500SE. It appears in the January 2002 issue of What Hi*Fi?. They reviewed the D500SE in a comparison of CD players priced up to £200. Here is the shortform of what What Hi*Fi? said about the D500SE (retail price £200):
For Smooth and refined with the right recording; high detail levels
Against Looks cheap and rough; still lacks drive and attack
Verdict out of
Sounding reasonable enough is no longer enough in this market; although retuned, this is still off the pace
Here is the longform, meaning the full review (actually not very long):
quote:
In the UK at least, Cambridge is one of the Richer Sounds 'house brands'. The formula is simple: design it here, make it somewhere low-cost and sell it at a competitive price, in this case aided by the fact the maker is also the retailer. It should make for superb value, but things seem to have gone awry in the D500 CD player, even in this retuned version.
It's a strangely old-fashioned player, seemingly designed with audiophile-quality recordings in mind. With the kind of well-recorded jazz and classical stuff so often used for demonstrations it's lovely, with a fine level of detail and taut control, but then such recordings tend to make any player seem good.
More to the point is that the Cambridge is found wanting with mainstream pop or dance discs, Spiritualized's current set sounding dense and confused, and lacking in impact, while the brighter jazz-funk of the latest Jamiroquai disc could do with better bass extension and drive.
It's all a bit strange, given that the engineering under the lid is impressive, combining a Sony transport with 20-bit delta/sigma conversion, and with close attention paid to power supplies. But what's more apparent from the outside is the frankly cheap-looking, if substantial, casework, and that restrained uninvolving sound. It might be time for the famous Richer 'was £200, now only £99.95 - we must be crazy!' discount, we think...

Now I know this thread is 2 years old but I was going through reading threads about the Cambridge D500SE, and read this whole thread and I am pretty sure the player tested above is NOT the SE version, but the regular D500 version. For starters they state is has a 20-bit DA converter which is what the original 500 had while the SE version had a 24-bit converter. The SE version was later reviewed very well.
This sub-parreview was also mentioned in this thread here too:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...mbridge+d500se
I am surprised no one ever pointed this out. I could be wrong though...can anyone confirm or deny this for sure? I just wanted to clear the good name of the SE model which was never done in either of these threads...