Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk? (1 Viewer)

[chuckg]

Last time I saw that monstrous old folded-horn subwoofer, it was doing duty as a low-frequency-effects unit in a theme park...the audio company I worked for at the time installed it there, way back in 1987 or so.

Those old drivers are tougher than you might think. We commonly ran each VOTT cabinet at 800 watts for rock music, and we had stacks of them.

 

[andrew markworthy]

Getting back on topic - it's not just Onkyo and Denon. I have an instruction manual for another manufacturer's amp that is 100+ pages long and is just about the worst-designed thing I've ever encountered. Part of my job is writing textbooks and instructional materials and so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that the amp manual is like How Not to Write an Instruction Manual 101. Some examples:

(1) the manual spends several pages encouraging you to use the HDMI inputs rather than component; but you also need the OSD (nowhere is this abbreviation explained) to do some of the set up. And guess what? The OSD is only displayed on component. This is mentioned once, in 8 point type, submerged within a diagram on an unrelated topic, about twenty pages later.

(2) the planning genius who wrote the manual ommitted to mention that unless you have the fingers of a small child, the connections must be placed in the back in a particular order - and that order is the reverse of the one given in the manual.

(3) only by cross-referencing five separate entries is it possible to work out which connections are to be used for a 5.1 speaker set up (the amp assumes 7.1 is the default). Oh yes, and to properly set up your speakers you need the OSD. But if you follow the manual's sequences, you set up the speakers before the OSD link is established.

(4) there are about thirty pages of instructions on how to set up macros, get the remote control to operate your other equipment, etc. Suffice to say that five people with science and engineering doctorates have looked at these instructions and between us we still can't work out how to do these operations. The one time I attempted to programme the remote I swear I opened a car parked in the street.

(5) the troubleshooting section is full of helpful advice such as 'if the unit does not respond, check the power source is on'. Thanks, I'll try that; since my lobotomy I haven't been thinking all that clearly.

 

[robert bartsch]

Yeh, I spent hours learning how to manually adjust the balance and tone controls for the Onkyo receiver. I turn off the unit in the AM and return in at night to learn that the settings go back to zero if you turn the power off. This is kinda dumb; right?

Heh, I just bought an Internet card for a portible PC and the software crashes the MS operating system. I tried several times including updates on the Net and finally removed the software and the unit stopped crashing.

 

[dany]

The manual's are so much easier to read online.

 

[chuckg]

Andrew....now that was funny!

I heartily agree that the manuals are junk. Horrible. Written in chinese, transliterated to Swahili, sent out on separate pages to Latvian kindergartners to copy (and translate into four different dialects of north-central India) and then re-written by dyslexic accolytes of rare cults that arose in the south pacific during WWII before being translated to English by yak herders in Siberia.

I think what got a rise out of folks is that we originally thought that the OP meant that the equipment is junk. Good thing we got that sorted out!

If someday someone creates a powerful, flexible device with a sensible user interface, it will sell like hotcakes. Or like the iPhone.

 

[andrew markworthy]

You omitted to mention that the yak herders must be certified mad and to have not said a single intelligible phrase in at least four years.

I have a theory that amp manuals are some sort of device of the intelligence services. If you manage to act on every instruction in the book correctly, the amp sends out a radio signal and the men in black come to your house to recruit you for a secret cryptography service.

 

[chuckg]

Oh man, I am SOOOOO screwed! I have a computer system here at work with over 6000 pages of gobbledegook in the manual. Will the MIB hold off until I wade through that?

 

[chuckg]

I thought that this little tidbit, from the online "Handbook of software architecture" might interest those who joined in this thread:

"the primary challenge of every software development team is to engineer the illusion of simplicity in the face of essential complexity."

This is exactly the trouble with the manuals and the arcane, byzantine, downright mean user interface.

 

[Yumbo]

Hence people prefer Yamahas - easy to use, with good manuals.

But sadly, I have to pick up an Onkyo as my next amp. Tossing between 705/805/875.

 

[Geoff Gunnell]

Why???

If the Onkyo user / firmware update / known issue threads at AVS are too long to wade through, try this one:
Onkyo tx-nr905 or Yamaha rx-v3800? - AudioReview Forums
In addition to what's mentioned there:
The AM/FM tuner is always on internally, and feeds through the phono input.
The multi-band graphic equalizer (your only way to fine tune Audyssey) won't work on 192kHz input signals -- bad news if you are inputting high res audio or upconverting to same.

 

[savasral]

and i ordered this onkyo SR606 reciever after reading so much of reviews reading every possible place on the web....finally to recieve a defective piece...well thats what i am assuming for now...cos i returned the unit and waiting for a replacement....
Problem was with the pic display on the tv screen in the hdmi mode...pic was blurred with a vertical patch on the left....i am hoping that it WAS a defective piece and i get a good one....i fought for almost 3 days with setups, reading the complicated manuals...trying to understand what each meant...

 

[FedUpWithJunk]

Stay away from Onkyo! I have a Tx-NR906 that has also been a pain from day one. The tuner section never functioned properly and completely died after 6 months. I sent it back for Warranty (to New York) and per them it was damaged in shipment and could not be repaired. The damage per USPS was not done in transit. After the threat of a lawsuit they agreed to repair the unit. Shipping by them to another center for repair resulted in even much more extensive damage. After another 6 months the amp was finally returned to me as "repaired". The AM tuner section never worked properly and was essentially useless. Now I am told that repair parts are no longer available! This is nuts! They are still selling this A/V Amp as a new item as of 7/5/2011 but repair parts are not available? No one will repair these things and parts are not available for customer repair. STAY AWAY FROM ONKYO! I wish I had as I now have a worthless $2000 paper weight that I have gotten less than 1 year total of partially usable service from. Onkyo Customer Service is nonexistent. Parts availability is nonexistent and Customer Support is nonexistent. There are only 2 or three centers in the entire continental USA that will even service Onkyo and it will cost you a minimum of $150 just to ship it back and forth for repair. Repair or Service Manuals are not available and apparently only one person in the entire country can get even a few parts for anything made by Onkyo. I can buy a Honda or Toyota car, go to the back of the Owner’s Manual and order an entire set of Shop Repair Manuals. These are exactly the same manuals the Dealer uses to service and repair their cars. That Onkyo won't support their customers in a similar fashion is an insult to their customer base. To those of you that think this is a great piece of equipment, just wait until you need to have it serviced. Then you will discover what a real pos Onkyo really is. My advice; dump every piece of Onkyo junk you have on Ebay, get what you can for it and don’t look back. I hope that someone can figure out a way to file a class action antitrust lawsuit against them similar to the one filed against car manufactures a few years ago that tried to screw owners on Warranty issues. Does anyone know a way around this? I am seriously thinking of starting a website (OnkyoSucks.com ?) featuring videos of Onkyo products thrown off of a building onto the sidewalk.

 

[Gary Seven]

Coincidently, I was talking to my wife about the same thing... in the 70s you bought a receiver, hooked up two speakers, plug in the phono and/or cassette player and you're done. Probably 30 minutes worth of work. Power on, and adjust the simple controls. Who needed to RTFM?


Well those days are gone. The functionality of a receiver is now an audio/video receiver with functionality having grown exponentially. I just a got a new Denon and it took me three days to get it all right. I still haven't connected it to the internet yet.


My approach to new equipment is to get the basics hooked up and get it to work. After that, you work with one input at a time, move on to calibration, etc. and just do it in steps. While I'm no fan of Onkyo, I would not call Onkyo nor Denon junk due to increased functionality. Increased functionality always increases complexity.


On the other hand, you can still buy receivers that hook up simply as was done in the 70s'. But of course you will miss out on the latest technology.

 

[gene c]

I also think one of the main problems (for them, not us) is how competetive the market is. All these new features that come out every year are generally added without an increase in cost. Something has to give and it's usually quality. This all add up to more problems (for us this time) down the road. One of the reasons I'm having a hard time letting go of my old H/K 7200 is it's simplicity. i can access most of the features it does have from the remote control without having to enter the setup menu. And I agree that Onkyo and Denon aren't junk. Maybe they aren't what they used to be to some people but they're still good receivers for the money. My first avr was an Aiwa DV75 . Now that was junk.

 

[davepr]

The author of this thread has a point. The documentation that goes along with today's avrs are not easy for anyone without some level of technical skills and ability. I am a techie and the knowledge to be able to sort through the manuals but I have empathy for those without a background. The usability of this equipment and its documentation could use a great deal of improvement. That said I would not call these avrs junk. Given their complexity and density of function they do well. Today's avrs are basically computers wrapped around a set of amplifiers with all that implies. I have an Onkyo TX-NR1008 that I am very happy with. I also have a Harmony One remote that we use to operate our system. Without this remote my Ludite spouse would be very very unhappy.