Fringe season 3 thread (2 Viewers)

[Henry Gale]

At the certain risk of offending those who get the warm fuzzies on the first Sunday after the Full Moon that follows the Vernal Equinox; there's no way Walter is invoking a diety, no matter if he thinks he's losing Peter and the whole world.


I could handle him reaching for the single malt, but that's as far as I'll go without declaring a shark jumping.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Originally Posted by Henry Gale

At the certain risk of offending those who get the warm fuzzies on the first Sunday after the Full Moon that follows the Vernal Equinox; there's no way Walter is invoking a diety, no matter if he thinks he's losing Peter and the whole world.


I could handle him reaching for the single malt, but that's as far as I'll go without declaring a shark jumping.

I disagree completely. The Walter of 1985 would never have done it... but he's not the same man. Walter has grown a lot since we were introduced to him; the first season was about him remembering how to be a person after being locked up for all that time. In the second season, his arc was about remembering who he was, and beginning to see the consequences of his actions, and for the first time beginning to question some of the mistakes he has made. This season, he's wrestled with wanting to do the right thing, but being afraid of repeating the mistakes of his past. (This is obviously way too simplistic of a summary, but that's more or less the gist as I've interpreted.) Like he said when he walked into the chapel, "I don't know my way around here." And I don't think the scene should necessarily be interpreted as him having found faith in an instant. I'm someone who doesn't have a lot of religion in my life, so I feel like I understand where Walter's coming from... in the end, it's not so much about Walter suddenly believing in a god as it is about Walter coming to terms with how powerless he is in that moment, how every bit of science and logic and research and experience he's ever had can do nothing to help him in that moment. As with the white tulip (both the episode about it from last season and his invocation of it in his monologue), as someone who might have a greater concept of how the universe works than most, I think Walter can admit that there's something peaceful in the idea of there being some sort of order, or great protector, or something that could give him absolution. His education and experience doesn't necessarily allow him to believe in it, but that doesn't mean he didn't wish it was so. I think there's something universal in that, how many of us in our lives have made some kind of mistake or been in some kind of trouble, where we wished someone could forgive us or give us peace, whether it's a parent or a friend or a god? I don't think Walter believes in a literal god, but his experiences with the observers, knowledge of the first people, etc., informs him that there exists something more powerful than human beings. I don't think the scene was about Walter suddenly having a "come to Jesus" moment; I think it was about him wishing he could find the peace and hope that the idea of a god brings to a lot of people.


We've also seen in the run of the series that Walter can go to extraordinary lengths to try to avoid the natural order of the universe(s). Whether it's crossing to another universe to save (a version of) his son, experimenting with drugs and sensory deprivation to be able to get vital information from a coma patient (as John Scott was in the pilot episode), trying to find a way to talk to his former lab partner (as the recent William Bell storyline covered), Walter is someone who has a hard time accepting both the finality of events and that events have consequences. And that he's also someone who has, until recently, had difficulty accepting his own mistakes and flaws instead of just trying to think his way out of him. In this scene, we see him finally accepting that there are things in this world that are outside of his control, things that he himself cannot fix, mistakes that he has to live with and take responsibility for instead of merely moving past them. It's the first time we've ever seen him say, essentially, I know I don't deserve to live for all of the things I've done. We've seen Walter willing to risk his life before; I don't know that we've ever seen him truly willing to sacrifice himself. It might be the first moment where, unprompted by anyone else, not being forced to say something, where he's saying, I'm sorry, and I know I don't deserve to be forgiven, and I would undo it all if I could.


I can understand why some people might not agree with either the scene or my interpretation of it, but I personally found it to be perhaps the most emotionally charged, moving moment that Walter's ever had onscreen. I was choked up by the end of the scene. (The other time I remember being so moved by Walter's grief was in last year's "Peter" episode -- the very last line of that episode belongs to Walter, after he's told Olivia the flashback story. He's got tremendous guilt on his face, he knows that even if it was well-intentioned, it was a sin, a violation of the laws of man and nature, and he doesn't beg Olivia's forgiveness. He simply says, "You have no idea what it's like to lose a child" and in that moment, just like in this episode, the series really transcended its sci-fi trappings and became something more. At that moment, the show wasn't about multiple universes or observers or strange mysteries; it was about a father trying to deal with an unimaginable pain, the kind of pain that we wouldn't wish on our own worst enemies and hope that we will never personally experience.)

 

[Quentin]

Wow...that's quite a wall of text.


But, I agree. Walter has shown time and again he 'believes' in a higher power. It may not be the same God most look to, but he definitely believes.


The single malt? I dunno about that. I don't think I've ever seen Walter drink the hard stuff!

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Originally Posted by Quentin /forum/thread/304260/fringe-season-3-thread/270#post_3804404

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Been thinking about Fringe since last week's episodes and trying to compile a mental list of little plot points I'm curious to see resolved, if not this season, then at some point during the course of the series. It would be fun to read which, if any, things you guys hope gets addressed in the course of the show.


- In season two's finale, before they transport back to "over here", Peter runs into William Bell for presumably the first time since he was a kid, and Bell says something like, "It's amazing how well you've held up" and Peter responds, "What's a little universe hopping between friends?" Bell cryptically responds, "That's not what I meant." I wonder what he did mean. Was it a reference to Peter's difficult adjustment period as a child (as we saw a bit more of in this year's "Subject 13"), a reference to crossing-over being physically dangerous, or something else entirely?


- In the episode "Peter", at Peter's funeral, Nina says something to Walter about "you know how much Peter meant to me, and I hate to admit that he's gone". There was something about that line that made it seem like much more than a good friend or colleague feeling the loss of a friend's child. (Also, Bell was absent from Peter's funeral and Nina apparently was unable to reach him. Was this because, as stated, he was simply fundraising around the globe, or was it something else? We've kind of been led to believe Bell's no-show there was his own sort of "approval" for what Walter was going to attempt, but was it something more than that?)


- And, continuing in that fashion, why is it that Peter can "operate" the machine? What is it about him specifically? At first my guess was just that having crossed universes as a child and having been raised in one that was not his own might have had some effect on him, but that doesn't really seem to make much sense. (My early guess about the machine was that parts were buried here and parts were buried there, so I was surprised - not unpleasantly so - to see that there appeared to be two complete machines.) Peter's said to be "special" - when the Observer distracted Walternate from finding the cure for his Peter, he said he was there because "the moment was significant". Significant simply because curing or not curing Peter on that side is what would lead to the fight between the worlds? Or something more? I guess what I'm wondering is, was Peter born special (and if so, why?) or was it the circumstances of his upbringing that made it so?


- I had Sam Weiss questions but it seems like we're going to be getting some of those answers later this week.


- Still curious about the lab accident that was ultimately responsible for Walter being committed in the first place. In the early episodes, I liked how Peter described Walter losing his mind as something he always felt that "Walter did to us" rather than "something that happened to him". In a way, we've seen that it's both things -- he did ask to have parts of his brain removed, but the insanity obviously wasn't something he was looking forward to or anything. But I remember early on we were told he was committed because a lab partner died. I wonder, was it his partner from the "Peter" episode or someone else? Was it truly an accident or some kind of cover-up? Something related to the other universe or just a random experiment gone wrong? (I'm very curious, if they ever decide to show us, what Walter's last days before being committed were like. If Peter's death and his bringing alternate-Peter over here was the beginning of the end of his sanity and his life as he knew it, I'm curious what the rest of that tale is.)


- Just how did William Bell cross from universe to universe? Bell made reference to having crossed many times. It would seem unlikely that he used the kind of door Walter built for the first crossing, so just how did he accomplish it? I remember our Brandon saying that they couldn't find any records of how he did it, and I guess that could have just been the writers way of saying, don't ask, just go with it, but it seems like they're a bit craftier than that. And, if Bell could safely (or almost-safely) cross between worlds, why not share this information with Walter and bring back Peter? Even if it had been years afterwards, that Bell could go back and forth, that Bell knew Peter's abduction was the thing that triggered the war between sides, why not seek to end it?


- Newton wanted information from Peter about how to open a door between the universes, and yet Newton himself wasn't from our world (nor were the shapeshifters). Exactly what abilities do they have over there to cross over? What are the limits/extent of what they're able to do, or were able to do before they got that information from Walter? Was Walternate's crossing last season the first time someone human from over there came over here? I'd also love to know more about the creation of the shapeshifters and their (for lack of a better word) travel arrangements.


- How did Bell hook up with Walternate? Did Walternate know he was from our side, or just think of him as a brilliant guy who worked his way up to being part of his team?


- It seems like there has never been a moment where Walter (or someone from our side) has been able to tell Walternate, "Look, your Peter was going to die, without question.. given the choice between your son being dead in your world, or alive in another, wouldn't you choose the latter?"


- I love the character of William Bell, but much the way everyone was suspicious about his motives all through the first couple seasons when he was mostly an off-screen presence, I still remain suspicious. We've often seen that Walter is capable of doing the wrong thing for the right reason, which leads me to believe that Bell might be no different. (Although I could also accept the explanation that in learning about Walternate's technology over there and in trying to duplicate some of those experiments, often unsuccessfully, over here, maybe he was just trying to covertly give Massive Dynamic the tools it might one day need to have a chance to save this world.)


- Still wondering the true purpose of the Observers, although I suspect that will one day come. They seem reluctant to change things but ultimately able to if they choose - what's their endgame, what do they want? (An interesting thought I had: are the Observers what people in times before the scientific revolutions would have considered "angels"? Fringe doesn't spend a lot of time in religious territory, but Walter has mentioned Arthur C. Clarke's famous quote that "any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic" -- which just makes you wonder how they might fit into the history of our species as a whole.)


- Were the two universes once one universe that was somehow split, or did they always run parallel?


and the last one I can think of at the moment:


- Walter believes his trip to the other side to save that Peter was the first crack, the first breach between worlds -- but was it really? I mostly believe that it was, but we've only seen those events from his point of view. What if there was something much larger or different in play, so that while Walter was allowed to believe it was all his fault, maybe he's being used as a scapegoat?


I wouldn't be shocked if most or all of these questions are never answered, but one of the reasons I love this show is because watching it can just lead to these questions. Endless impossibilities, as the slogan on the older show promos goes.


What questions do you guys have that you'd like to see answered (even if you suspect that they might not be)?

 

[NeilO]

We learned some more including a bit from the first season with the light bulbs. An impressive WTF cliffhanger. The season finale should be interesting.


Seeing Olivia in the drawing brought me right back to Alias when we had the drawing of Sydney Bristow in the Rambaldi drawing.

 

[Josh Dial]

Amazing episode, and awesome cliffhanger leading into the season finale. This really is some of the best sci-fi ever to grace the screen.

 

[Quentin]

This really is the best sci-fi we've seen in some time. Let's hope it ends better than the previously promising BSG.


Methinks Peter must have landed in some alternate reality. A "third" universe, if you will. I keep thinking of Back To The Future 2. Remember, Peter didn't want to destroy the other universe. He wanted a third option. Perhaps he got it. Be careful what you wish for, Peter.


[SIZE= 12px]Whatever it is, it's obviously going to be when/where we begin next season and it is NOT going to be in Peter's comfort zone! Last season we ended with Olivia and Fauxlivia switched. Now, it's Peter's turn to figure out his way back to his 'soulmate'. It makes for a great extension of the mythos this show has created![/SIZE]

 

[Josh Steinberg]

An interesting question for future episodes will be: why is Peter so special, why is Olivia special? Clearly their destinies (or abilities) were forecasted long before they were born: why them?


Tonight's episode was fantastic, a great middle chapter in this three part finale. Loved the moment where Sam took the rock, used it to bowl the antique vase into a doorstop, and then responds, hey, I work in a bowling alley.


I also like the symmetry the show has shown, from the first season's lightbulbs bit coming back as an important thing Olivia must master, to the end of last week's episode (where Faux-Livia being locked up plays out almost exactly as the moment with Olivia in season two finale played.)


Wondering if next week's finale will feature the green/red combo title sequence that we got during the fall's wrap-up of the our-Olivia-in-the-alternate-universe episode.


Whether or not you love everything this show does, you have to admire that they have a vision that they go with. It seems very possible at this moment that our side might not survive. Just that they've made that possibility believable is pretty ballsy, most TV shows and movies that threaten our world as we know it are afraid to go through with the implications of that. Even if it's our side that survives in the end, I can say for sure that I've been on the edge of my seat until the plotline gets resolved.

More thoughts in the morning, or over the weekend, but just for now: I love this show!

 

[Brisby]

Any Observer sighting last night?

 

[NeilO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brisby

Any Observer sighting last night?

In flashbacks, yes. I don't recall seeing any others.

 

[Will_B]

"You've been hit" -- hit by what? Enemy fire? Is this third universe a mix of the two, with each set of people taking up arms against the other?

 

[Josh Dial]

Originally Posted by Will_B

"You've been hit" -- hit by what? Enemy fire? Is this third universe a mix of the two, with each set of people taking up arms against the other?

It appears to be a future of our universe--9/11 had happened (which we know wasn't the case over there), and One World Trade Center was up. I forget (and I have since deleted the recording off my PVR), but from the date on the sign, the building was dedicated in 2021, so we are at least 10 years in the future.

 

[Will_B]

Ok. Seems like this is very much like the end of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles! But I'm not complaining. That was a fabulous episode. You can really tell the difference between episodes they care about, and which are fillers. In the filler episodes, the characters just do their usual. In the good episodes, they stretch a bit, as they did here.In the other universe, 9/11 happened, but different targets (the White House and the Pentagon, in the other universe, I think).

 

[kzolady]

It's just a small thing, but did Walter actually call Astrid, ostrich?

Does anyone know where Peter is?

Will Olivia save us?

 

[Josh Dial]

Originally Posted by kzolady


Does anyone know where Peter is?

See the above two posts...

 

[Joe_H]

Originally Posted by Will_B /forum/thread/304260/fringe-season-3-thread/270#post_3806527

 

[Jose Martinez]

Originally Posted by Josh Dial




It appears to be a future of our universe--9/11 had happened (which we know wasn't the case over there), and One World Trade Center was up. I forget (and I have since deleted the recording off my PVR), but from the date on the sign, the building was dedicated in 2021, so we are at least 10 years in the future.

Yup, definitely looked like Freedom Tower




but the fringe division patch on the soldier was yellow, not the usual red like the other universe.





So it does look like a new universe was created or maybe the two were merged. My 0.02 cents

 

[Hanson]

It's sometime after 9/11/21





Yes Jose, definitely the Freedom Tower.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

9/11 did happen "over there", as discussed in the season two episode "Jacksonville" - it's just that over there, the White House was hit, while the Twin Towers were not.


It'll be interesting to see what happens from here, who knows, maybe what this future is will be answered to us in the first five minutes of the episode (wouldn't be the first time a teaser made one element seem more important to keep spoilers secret until the episode aired). In previous episodes, we've seen that both Peter and Olivia refuse to accept that one universe must die so that the other can live. We've also seen that when Peter woke up in this week's episode, initially he was acting as though he was from "over there" (remembering his father being the secretary of defense before all other things) -- maybe a side effect of Peter being zapped by the machine which had been turned on over at the other side? I wonder if the destruction we saw in this episode might have been the result of them trying to save both worlds instead of one.

What little I got from the preview made it seem as if that hint of a future they sent us might not have been set in stone, but maybe was something Peter glimpsed and came back from, maybe with the ability to change it.

Whatever happens - I'm excited!


edit: Just had this thought -- what if somehow Peter ended up in the future, and saw our universe falling apart, and realized his decision was between saving our side temporarily though it would fall apart anyway in time, or sacrificing our side because "over there" had a better chance of survival? I'm not sure if that's where they'd go with it - but I believe that the people making the show are gutsy enough that they would give it a try if that was the story they wanted to tell.