Can Amazon stand above the fray and make sense of the Android / tablet mess? (1 Viewer)

[ManW_TheUncool]

Well, if you already have some sort of sizeable following and no real competition, you can probably afford to do it w/out some sort of loss leader, but if you're trying to break into a market that's already dominated by some industry giant and have not been known for delivering great products of this type, then that's a whole other story and you probably need to seriously consider options like going the loss leader route me thinks.

That's not to say Amazon can't possibly succeed w/out using the loss leader approach, but it's certainly gonna be a big uphill battle for them. And if you consider the fact that they're *already* using the loss leader approach to plant seeds (via daily free app offers) for their entry into that market, there's certainly some probability that they may just continue down that road to some extent w/ the eventual hardware product (at least for the near term). Maybe all the seeds they're planting (along w/ the rest of the Android world) will be enough to help them jump into the tablet market w/out selling the hardware as a loss leader... or maybe not...

_Man_

 

[Sam Posten]

So....
http://m.techcrunch.com/2011/09/02/amazon-kindle-tablet/

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Good to have more details on it, but doesn't really sound like what I'll likely get at least in its first incarnation anyway -- sounds too much like a Nook Color, except it'll probably run more smoothly and will have more apps, but w/out any memory/storage expandability despite the very limited built-in capacity...

_Man_

 

[Sam Posten]

Maybe not for you but sounds perfect for my Mom. Can't wait to see the real details...

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Hehheh... Well, it would be worth considering for my wife perhaps, if we didn't already have a Nook Color. But since it sounds to be a bit too much like the NC w/ some moderate diffs, it's not likely to be compelling enough for us -- that's really all I meant by that comment.

Anyway, I'm definitely very interested to see how Amazon's approach and offerings play out in actual practice and will not rule out the possibility of owning one of their tablets some time down the line... although I must admit to being a tad disappointed to hear that they probably won't be bundling Google Maps and Nav (not that Apple offers a full bundle w/ the best parts of Google Nav on its iOS devices either, of course)... I wonder though how their eventual(?) 3G(?) offerings will work out (eg. w/ the wireless providers) since these devices will have internet access which their non-Android Kindles do not...

_Man_

 

[marsnkc]

Putting my two cents in here because I'm technically illiterate and want to get notices of future postings/updates (hopefully) from you guys on Amazon's tablet - pros and cons.
If I'm not misunderstanding you, Man, the Kindle 3 actually does have internet access. Slower than molasses and a nightmare to navigate, but it's there. Amazon portrays it as 'experimental', and encourages people's opinions. Maybe a beta/dry run for the tablet?
I'd love it if Amazon was able to somehow keep its e-Ink feature on a tablet, but as long as I can access the 'net, watch videos and download books in the great outdoors, I'll be reasonably happy - at the right price! The iPad is too rich for my blood.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Andrew,

If the rumored info from that Tech Crunch report is accurate, then Amazon's upcoming Android-based offering may well suit you best amongst what are expected to be available in the near future, except (as I was wondering in my allusion) it's unclear how 3G internet access would fit into the business model and, more importantly, what it'd mean to your own bottomline.

I took a quick look at the current Kindle, and the internet access that currently offers seems limited to use of WiFi, not the mobile wireless data access I was talking about, eg. 3G data service via one of the big telecom providers, which is what you'd probably need for "the great outdoors". If you need to use 3G data service for that, then that's probably gonna add a whole lot to the cost of ownership based on current business models unless Amazon somehow manages to swing some other sort of deal w/ the telecom providers to make it much less expensive to the end-user. The rumored price diff of the hardware would likely be rather small compared to the cost of data service in the grand scheme of things, so you may still be best off simply choosing the more expensive device (eg. iPad) in the long run as long as it's clearly the best by a sizable margin...

If, OTOH, you're like some of us and already own something -- however inferior (or not) to the iPad or iPhone -- that works fine enough right now, then that would likely impact how you view the current/upcoming offerings -- and that's why I compared this rumored Android-based Kindle to the Nook Color in the way that I did (even though I'm guessing the Amazon offering will likely have significantly more pros than cons vs the NC)...

And for your own personal shopping research, maybe you might want to check out the Nook Color in person at a B&N store to get a sense of what Amazon's offering might feel a bit like, if that Tech Crunch report is correct. I'm sure the Amazon device experience won't be quite like the Nook Color just as the iPad is not quite like one of the standard Android tablets, but you'll probably get a sense of what to expect (except I'm guessing it should likely offer a better, smoother experience) since it sounds like it'll be targeted to compete directly against the NC, which is basically old tech that it should easily leapfrog at this point...

_Man_

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

One more thing about the 3G internet access thing. If the Tech Crunch rumor is correct, including how much Amazon's offering will rely on the Cloud, then perhaps, there's some likelihood that Amazon will actually work out some other sort of business model w/ the telecom providers to make the data access less expensive to the end-user -- perhaps, it'll be at least partially subsidized by Amazon's own products and services... or maybe not...

_Man_

 

[marsnkc]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004HZYA6E/ref=s9_pop_gw_g349_ir06?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1CA14CBHYSHXJJ10B983&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1263340922&pf_rd_i=507846
Thanks very much for the info, Man. I keep forgetting about the wireless connectivity, which again the Kindle 3 does offer for free (the $189 model sells for $139 if you accept ads, which only appear after you close down the device - so far it's either been Visa or Amazon itself). Price was again the factor in choosing the Kindle over an NC, but I miss color. Web pages look really weird in b/w!
However, some rumors have it that free 3G will be contingent on how much of a loss (apparently a given) Amazon will be willing to bear on its tablets. If it doesn't come free, I'll just have to rely on Wi-Fi accessibility and fall back on whatever I've saved outside those areas. Depends of course on price, but I'd rather pay a little more upfront for the unit than suffer another monthly bill (your second paragraph seems to imply that 3G comes free with the iPad - is this correct?)
Finally, CBS reports today that a German court has ordered Samsung to pull its Galaxy 7.7 from an electronics fair in Berlin. Sales of the tablet were already banned after Apple claimed the Galaxy copies its iPad. Article quotes an electronics trader as saying the charge is exaggerated, that "these products can't be made any other way." (Makes me wonder if Gutenberg ever sued later manufacturers of printing presses, but then his invention was itself an adaptation of existing technologies....:).

 

[marsnkc]

(On the Samsung issue, it's just an injunction for now. The court will rule on Friday on the merits. That'll be interesting...!)

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by ManW_TheUncool /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess#post_3846789
Good to have more details on it, but doesn't really sound like what I'll likely get at least in its first incarnation anyway -- sounds too much like a Nook Color, except it'll probably run more smoothly and will have more apps, but w/out any memory/storage expandability despite the very limited built-in capacity...

_Man_

Except the color requires user unfriendly rooting to be a tablet, while the Amazon tablet is said to come with all that functionality straightaway

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Originally Posted by DaveF /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/30#post_3847683

Except the color requires user unfriendly rooting to be a tablet, while the Amazon tablet is said to come with all that functionality straightaway

Where does it actually say the first Amazon tablet as described by that Tech Cruch piece will still be that sort of tablet? It sure doesn't sound much like it to me -- and that piece also doesn't sound much like most other vague rumored details before it either. For instance, it's being described there as something far more reliant on Cloud than anything else so far, eg. only 6GB memory w/ what sounds like no expandability.

FWIW, although B&N's NC originally came out being nothing like a typical Android tablet, they seem to be gradually converting it into some sort of hybrid as long as they feel they can maintain enough control over it to suit their business -- and yes, they do have some sort of Android app store now though it's probably still very tiny and limits to apps that have been updated to work w/ their NC SDK, which is mainly just a skin for the Android SDK AFAIK.

To me, that's really what Amazon sounds like they want to do, except they seem to be approaching this from a different angle based on their own (much greater) established tech/online strengths, including their #1 online shopping presence, Cloud, quickly growing App Store, etc...

But either way, the tablet you'd be choosing in the coming months won't include an NC that's completely void of functionalities that many people might want from an inexpensive tablet -- that NC no longer exists though that's not to say it will compete well against Amazon's upcoming offering...

_Man_

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Originally Posted by marsnkc /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess#post_3847638
(your second paragraph seems to imply that 3G comes free with the iPad - is this correct?)

No, I meant to suggest that if you're going to pay $$$ for 3G data service anyway, you'd probably be best off just getting an overall better device despite the higher buy-in cost because that diff is going to be relatively small in the grand scheme of things (and you might as well have the best to go w/ the $$$ data service).

And I don't really see the point of getting a heavily Cloud/streaming-reliant tablet w/out 3G access either. I gotta think WiFi will not be nearly good enough for that (unless you really do plan on using it only at home, at Starbucks or something like that). Also, I really wonder how well that will all work out if the 3G access is provided much the same way as for all other tablets (and smartphones). If that Tech Cruch piece is correct, 6GB built-in w/ no expandability is probably going to break current business models for 3G access -- either that or it'll probably burn a serious hole in the end-user's wallet...

_Man_

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by ManW_TheUncool /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/30#post_3847714

Where does it actually say the first Amazon tablet as described by that Tech Cruch piece will still be that sort of tablet? It sure doesn't sound much like it to me -- and that piece also doesn't sound much like most other vague rumored details before it either. For instance, it's being described there as something far more reliant on Cloud than anything else so far, eg. only 6GB memory w/ what sounds like no expandability.

??? The whole article. It's described as being a book, music, movie device with a web brwoser that will (later) support apps through Amazon's Marketplace.

A friend showed me his Nook Color this weekend. In manually rooted mode, it's a low-power tablet that can run apps, play movies, surf the web, etc, but no longer runs the book interface. He then popped a corner of the hardware out, pushed a hardware reset button, and it booted back into ebook format (and could no longer do tablety things). That's awesome for geeks, but is not a mass-market $250 tablet out of the box.

The Amazon Tablet is sneak-peaked as being some sort of full-media, app-running, web-surfing device OOB. It's not an iPad, but it doesn't require rooting to do more than ebooks (as sneak-peeked).

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by ManW_TheUncool /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/30#post_3847724
And I don't really see the point of getting a heavily Cloud/streaming-reliant tablet w/out 3G access either. I gotta think WiFi will not be nearly good enough for that (unless you really do plan on using it only at home, at Starbucks or something like that). Also, I really wonder how well that will all work out if the 3G access is provided much the same way as for all other tablets (and smartphones). If that Tech Cruch piece is correct, 6GB built-in w/ no expandability is probably going to break current business models for 3G access -- either that or it'll probably burn a serious hole in the end-user's wallet...

_Man_

My wife's 3G iPad 2 has never had 3G activated. We have had wifi access almost everywhere we've taken it on vacation (be it hotels or friends'); but it's really a couch device for home use. My experience, through her, is a media device doesn't need 3G but rarely.

Different strokes and all that: she's a web surfer, emailer, Facebooker and gamer. Doesn't use the ipad for music or movies. Were it not for photos, I bet a 6GB tablet would be manageable for her use, almost always, even without 3G.

 

[marsnkc]

'Unaffiliated' Amazon Tablet site saying definitively that the price will be $250 and will not carry 3G capability which, they opine, 'will not be a deal-breaker'...
http://amazontablet.net/features-of-the-amazon-tablet/

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

The Amazon Tablet is sneak-peaked as being some sort of full-media, app-running, web-surfing device OOB. It's not an iPad, but it doesn't require rooting to do more than ebooks (as sneak-peeked).

At least in concept, the current NC can actually do most-to-all those things already w/out rooting, but the specifics is where the potentially big diffs will be -- you'd be right about the original version of the NC's software though, but that hasn't been the case since circa May when they released their big software update based on Android 2.2 (Froyo) and started offering apps in their own app store, etc.

Now, I'm not gonna tout about how great each of those functionalities are in the NC -- they are not great, but they've been serviceable enough for something in this price range (probably much like what one might find in various other bargain priced, no-frills tablets) at least until Amazon comes out w/ there own tablet.
And like I said, there's nothing written in that Tech Crunch piece that makes the Amazon tablet sound like it's all that different from the current incarnation of the NC in concept anyway... that is, beyond stuff like Cloud and streaming service. Of course, in actual practice, the experience may indeed be a whole lot better than the NC just because Amazon will likely bring a whole lot more to the table than B&N does, including likely better implementation of UI, performance optimizations, etc.

_Man_

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Originally Posted by DaveF /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/30#post_3847738

My wife's 3G iPad 2 has never had 3G activated. We have had wifi access almost everywhere we've taken it on vacation (be it hotels or friends'); but it's really a couch device for home use. My experience, through her, is a media device doesn't need 3G but rarely.

Different strokes and all that: she's a web surfer, emailer, Facebooker and gamer. Doesn't use the ipad for music or movies. Were it not for photos, I bet a 6GB tablet would be manageable for her use, almost always, even without 3G.

I agree that a media device doesn't generally need 3G *IF* you're typically using it at home or in places w/ free WiFi access, eg. Starbucks, maybe the library, etc. Then again, this Amazon device is expected to be quite a bit smaller and more portable at 7", so it's probably intended for more uses than simply "at home" or the like. For instance, a commuter train ride would be one common, everyday scenario where one would want to use it w/out WiFi access -- though you probably also wouldn't get 3G access in most subways, if that's what you take.
In any case, there is no way 6GB is enough if you plan on using the tablet like you seem to expect a full-featured tablet should do unless it involves a good deal of reliance on streaming, Cloud, etc. Even in your wife's case, you already point out she keeps enough photos on there to likely make 6GB too small even though she doesn't use it for music or movies. And I'm sure there's a good reason (beyond just the cost/$$$-making analysis) why Apple didn't bother to offer an 8GB iPad afterall.

Also, the Tech Crunch piece wasn't clear on this, but that 6GB may or may not be actual useable storage for your own apps, content, etc. It's possible (though probably not so likely given the context of that piece) that part of that 6GB might end up being eaten up by the OS and whatever built-in core apps -- or maybe the actual memory size is 8GB w/ 2GB eaten up by the OS, core apps, etc.

_Man_

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by ManW_TheUncool /t/311127/can-amazon-stand-above-the-fray-and-make-sense-of-the-android-tablet-mess/30#post_3847801


Actually, that's not really true. You *can* surf the web, run apps (that may or may not need to be ported to work w/ the NC though the selection from B&N's own app store is tiny so far), play video, music, etc. w/out rooting it. My wife and kids already do that w/ her NC, and it has not been rooted at all.

Ok; thanks for the clarification. the way my friend demo'd it, that didn't come across as how it worked.

I spent more time playing with his HP Touchpad.

 

[DaveF]

I advised my sister, said she has an iPad already to buy an eink book reader, and not a Nook Color or such LCD reader. Agree or disagree?

What do you see as the market for the Nook Color and Amazon Kindle devices?