Apple TV 3.0 is a total yawner. (1 Viewer)

[DaveF]

What DVR software do you use for control and TV guide data?


That's interesting to hear that you can do full DVR and Blu-ray stuff on the Mac. When I looked into doing this with DVDs, it was expensive and very time-consuming. It seemed it would be even worse with Blu-ray. Perhaps not, now.

 

[Ted Todorov]

My DVR software is EyeTV (from elgato.com) It uses TV Guide as its TV guide (before that it used Titan TV, but TV Guide is much better. My tuner devices are an HD Home Run (dual tuner) and EyeTV 500. (They have newer hardware now -- I've been using EyeTV for 4(?) years.)


The main downside of EyeTV is that it doesn't support cable card so it can record digitally only unencrypted cable channels ("Clear QAM" aka basic cable) and/or over the air HDTV. For premium channels it uses a component video in device -- so you still get HD recordings but they go through a DtoA/AtoD cycle. I don't bother -- I get my HBO etc. on DVD or from iTunes.


On the other hand DVRs that do have cable card have all kinds of restrictions which EyeTV doesn't have.

 

[mattCR]

The biggest problem though is that doing it the way you are, Ted, it's not all done "in one umbrella" It's multiple programs to do one function. That's what really lacks in AppleTV. You can do what you are doing, but you either use 2 PCs, or you have one like a MacMini and bounce between different programs to get the output.


Meanwhile, those who use a single front end, whether it's sage or MS MCE, find that they can do all of it all under one interface without ever leaving. For wife acceptance factor, that's a huge difference. And as near as I can tell, while you know how to get BD playback, you aren't getting mount and play (menus, etc.) which I can't really get into why because of forum rules

But the AppleTV and MacMini don't put out HD Bitstream audio, they don't put out uncompressed LPCM, they don't do 24p, they don't do java menu rendering or any BD flow, they don't put everything under one roof. You mention Itunes, I have no problem getting my Itunes library just fine under a MCE interface and sharing it everywhere now that they aren't DRM'd.

Since MCE and Sage and others all support Hulu/Netflix integration fine, I have no issue with most TV, or even storage of them, and integrating CBS.COM/ABC/NBC/FOX website video is also pretty straightforward. At the same time, using automation, I can have shows follow me, keeping in mind where I stopped/started/pause, and start at exactly that point on any other media center or XBOX in my house.


Those are the kind of things AppleTV really lacks.

 

[Ted Todorov]

I can get 100% of the output through Front Row -- there is two way integration into EyeTV as well as DVDPedia.


In practice though because of my iPhone based mouse and remotes, I do switch back and forth between EyeTV and Front Row -- works fine for me, without ever budging from the couch. My wife tends to stick to Front Row -- she loves the DVD browsing especially -- never wants to deal with physical DVDs anymore.


Don't use Hulu etc., as I have zero tolerance for commercials. Don't use Netflix streaming because my DSL speed is pathetic. &*((*)*&^%!! Verizon


I've never used MS MCE -- having read in the WSJ & NY Times about various programs (virus scans, buy this trail version of xx, You have a critical MS system update) launching in the middle of movies I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Maybe the press has lied to me, but I do have a MS PC on my desk at work (and have had one for the last 15 years) and know that it is an operating system that my life is too short to deal with without the aide of an entire IT department. The idea that I would allow it in my home is anathema. Plus my wife would divorce me.

Note -- I am not talking about AppleTV here, don't have one, can't imagine why I would -- my Mac is attached via DVI/HDMI to a 1080P HDTV and an AVR via optical Toslink.

 

[mattCR]

I think WSJ/Etc. have it way wrong.. I've had my MCE up for 118 days.. and it never gets interupted by the OS... ever. You have the option in it to tell it to be "exclusive" so it stays permanently up. Having tried all the other alternatives (Sage, etc.) they also work that way as well.

MS just has the worst marketing ever.


As to the Netflix bit: ah. Yeah, couldn't live with that.. but I will say, as has been the case for about 3 years, if you have MCE set to permanently up, it never gets interupted with any sort of popup or anything, the screen never changes. It's simple enough that my 10 year old can work the remote without issue.. and as far as wife acceptance factor, I will say we started with an AppleTV and pitched it. AppleTV for the wife was -way- more of a chore then MCE.


But it's all buyers taste.


As to Frontrow, that's slick. Again, if you're going DVI-HDMI, though, you can't do real the real deal, you can get close, but not quite. No HD bitstreaming, definitely no 3D BD support, and you can't integrate BD menu'ing, etc. But the loss of HD audio is a significant one. You can't output LPCM multichannel over toslink.. or TrueHD.. or DTS-MA. You also can't output more then 96khz (really, you can "fake" it, but you can't deliver more by standard).

Those kind of things are significant to me.


But it is really interesting that EyeTV now integrates with FrontRow. In the end, Apple needs to completey rethink AppleTV.. which is what this thread is about. You aren't using it because basically you see the inherent flaws as well. And while your solution solves some of them, it doesn't solve all of them. Because the problems with AppleTV itself are significant and can't be changed the way you have it.

 

[Sam Posten]

September refresh seems likely. And IOS for the living room makes perfect sense to me.


http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/apple-hopes-to-re-enter-the-living-room/


BUT they really need to do something about differentiating the different form factors in the App store if this comes true. Adding 480p 720p 1080p (doubt they would add 1080i) to the iPhone, iPhone4 and iPad forks already in the store is going to be a mess for developers. There's been a lot of talk on true resolution independence on OSX for a long time but that simply won't work on iOS, you HAVE to program to an exact expected resolution on those devices to get the absolute highest quality out of them. That was the WHOLE POINT on how cool apps were on an iPhone or iPod touch, you only have ONE hardware spec to target and have millions of devices that just work. Today that's getting to the 'not so much' realm.

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by Sam Posten


More pointedly, the OS on the AppleTV is not the problem. That's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The problem is the available content and its cost. Too little and too high (last time I looked). The price and capability of the actual hardware is doing anyone any favors, either.

 

[Sam Posten]

Rumors have circulated about Kinect like UIs.... Time will tell.

 

[DaveF]

Waving my hands to change channels. Jumping up and down to adjust volume. My wife walks in and it charges me $69.99 and downloads a season of Desperate Housewives.


I can't wait.

 

[Sam Posten]

The thing is every time we have a discussion like this everyone imagines what X new tech would be like if some shitty company like Microsoft or Sony designed it. But what if APPLE designed it?

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by Sam Posten ../apple-tv-3-0-is-a-total-yawner#post_3706677

 

[DaveF]

More usefully: I'm no fan of the AppleTV. Its pricing and content are such that it's a very niche product to those that want to pay a lot of money for a few shows that are sub-HDTV quality but very convenient. The hardware and interface seem fine. The problem, I think, is the content and pricing.


I've not looked for a while, but last I checked, movies and TV shows cost more than I'd pay retail for the same thing on DVD. They were lower video quality, and lacked all special features. And the selection was very limited. I'm a fan of convenience, but it didn't make any sense to me to pay $229+ to then pay too much for sub-par quality content.


This is not an OS problem.


Open it to Hulu and Netflix, Drop the price of content. Get the hardware to $149 or lower. Let me add USB drives for cheap storage expansion. Make sure it can be operated by my Harmony universal remote. Add a Blu-Ray drive so it's an all-in-one playback device and I can get rid of a dedicated Blu-ray player.

 

[mattCR]

Originally Posted by Sam Posten

The thing is every time we have a discussion like this everyone imagines what X new tech would be like if some shitty company like Microsoft or Sony designed it. But what if APPLE designed it?

You'd get locked DVR recordings you couldn't convert or archive for any real length of time, no support for extenders or external media.. you'd get no bluray support, no LPCM support, no DTS support, no FLAC or MKV support native.

Apple tried this, called Apple TV.. and even hardcore apple fans bailed and did what Ted did.

Apple isn't a member of the forum to support Cablecard, so it'd take someone like SiliconDust, and while it's possible (in fact, kind of easy) to integrate digital international channels to other products I can't imagine the effort to do it with Apple... or using a Region free burner/reader to handle PAL and NTSC content on one box?

 

[JohnRice]

Originally Posted by DaveF

More usefully: I'm no fan of the AppleTV. Its pricing and content are such that it's a very niche product to those that want to pay a lot of money for a few shows that are sub-HDTV quality but very convenient. The hardware and interface seem fine. The problem, I think, is the content and pricing.


I've not looked for a while, but last I checked, movies and TV shows cost more than I'd pay retail for the same thing on DVD. They were lower video quality, and lacked all special features. And the selection was very limited. I'm a fan of convenience, but it didn't make any sense to me to pay $229+ to then pay too much for sub-par quality content.


This is not an OS problem.


Open it to Hulu and Netflix, Drop the price of content. Get the hardware to $149 or lower. Let me add USB drives for cheap storage expansion. Make sure it can be operated by my Harmony universal remote. Add a Blu-Ray drive so it's an all-in-one playback device and I can get rid of a dedicated Blu-ray player.

You're not a fan of Apple TV. I had no idea. Yes, it is an outdated product that was a bit short to begin with.


So, for Apple TV to be worthwhile, it has to be an HD DVR, stream Netflix, Hulu, etc. function as a full BR player, AND sell for under $149? Will you be holding your breath for that product to EVER appear? From any manufacturer? So, you don't like the Apple TV. Sure, but this expectation is simply absurd.

 

[Sam Posten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveF

I was specifically talking about full body multitouch or voice control.

I have an Apple TV and it's OK. For it to be REALLY useful to me it would have to, as John notes, do all it does, Hulu, Netflix, 2 tuner cable-card ready DVR and Bluray. I know that's not going to happen, you know it's not going to happen, but until it does happen I won't use it the way Apple wants me to. Sorry, I simply won't pay premium prices for low resolution semi-HD content that is from last year.


Is what Apple puts out now worth $100 to me? Sure maybe cause I'm a geek and I dig stuff like that. But not to my non geek friends and relatives.

 

[mattCR]

Originally Posted by JohnRice




You're not a fan of Apple TV. I had no idea. Yes, it is an outdated product that was a bit short to begin with.


So, for Apple TV to be worthwhile, it has to be an HD DVR, stream Netflix, Hulu, etc. function as a full BR player, AND sell for under $149? Will you be holding your breath for that product to EVER appear? From any manufacturer? So, you don't like the Apple TV. Sure, but this expectation is simply absurd.

While that target is irrational, look at the other side.. you can easily have an HDMI ready, Bluray player that supports Hulu and Netflix on the PC side for about $400. Including software cost.


*785G board + Sempron140=$80

*Memory = $29

*HDD=$50 for a 500G

*TVTuner w/QAM=$39

*Case with PSU=$44

*OS=$89

*BD Reader=$69

Total: 400. In fact, doing one for the father this weekend, total cost exactly $387 based on the receipts and before rebates.

So, if some weekender can go to Microcenter and grab the parts for sub $400, then someone out there has to be able to put together similar at about the same price.

 

[JohnRice]

Well, since reading Dave's post, I've been feeling like such a fool. I finally bought a BR player and all it does is play discs and wirelessly stream NetFlix, that's ALL, and I paid the outrageous price of $150. I had no idea that $150 should get me all that other stuff as well. The problem is, I've spent the last several hours searching, and I find no product in existence that remotely resembles what Dave is demanding as a bare minimum. I must be missing something. I bet all those people who spent $500 on the Oppo BD-83, which only plays discs and doesn't even offer streaming of any kind, must feel like a bunch of idiots.

 

[DaveF]

Setting aside my hyperbole, the start of the current conversation was about the atv switching to iOS, with the implication being that will be great for it. But the atv's weaknesses are not an os problem.

Sam, I know the context of your rhetorical question, but framing was too funnily read more literally. To your point: hand gestures won't fix the atv. The interface is not it's weakness either.

The heart of the problem is the media companies. The content is split and fractured across TV, Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, and AppleTV. And there are competing boxes. AppleTV is the worst in that sense it's own box that doesn't play with others. At least with TiVo I can also do netflix and amazon and maybe hulu in the future? But for itunes i have to get the atv. If iTunes content could be bought and played through other devices, that would be interesting. Or if atv was an aggregating device that could do netflix and hulu and amazon, then an affordable $149 box would bring apple simplicity to tame the living room.


Likewise content. It's fractured and particularly expensive for download. Rentals can make sense, but, but they're hamstrung by the media cos. For example, I can't rent Harry Potter and Half Blood Prince from iTunes. It's probably available from Amazon or Netflix or somewhere. But this fracturing -- even if it's not Apple's fault nor their's to solve -- diminishes the appeal of these devices as rent & buy boxes.


And none of that is solved with an OS refresh, sadly.

 

[DaveF]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/11/upcoming-apple-tv-loses-1080p-playback-gains-apps/

Revised rumors: 720p only; AppStore ; "iTV"

 

[Sam Posten]

I would definitely buy one of those for my parents...