A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about (1 Viewer)

[snash22]

This is an excellent thread!

I am on the verge of a HDTV purchase and this component approach sounds logical, money saving in the long term, but expensive in the short term. I'm wondering whether this can be done "on the cheap" for now, and improved as time goes on.

I currently have an old DVD player, no HDMI outputs. I plan on buying a 46 - 56" HDTV in the next 6 months.

If I ensure the HDTV accepts native 1080p and the new DVD player outputs native 480i via HDMI, is there a low budget VP that I could put between them that would be worth the money?

Also, I can save money by getting a 720p HDTV rather than a 1080p, freeing up cash for a VP. Which is the bigger improvement, 1080p or 720p via VP?

 

[snash22]

It just occurred to me the HTPC may be my answer but I am hesitant to go there unless it is as simple as making my PC HT dedicated and loading some new cards. I'm not about to do anything more than that.

 

[Adam Gregorich]

The difference between 720P by 1080P depends on your seating distance. That having been said If you can afford it get 1080P. I wouldn't buy 720P to save $ for a video processor.

 

[snash22]

Adam - Yep, I'm also looking into the distance calculators and it looks like 720p will be fine if I get a 46" inch and 1080p will be better if I go 56".

I guess that improvement from a VP may be more subtle than going from 720p to 1080p.

 

[Mike OConnell]

Another message sent to DVDO with no response.

Here is the question:

I am planning on buying a VP-30 or VP-50 very soon, but need to know what cable to buy to connect to my projector.

My LCD front projector has only analog connections (no HDMI or DVI) and has a native rate of 1366x768. I have confirmed with the projector manufacturer that it can accept the native rate from a scaler. The projector can either accept a component (YPbPr) or RGBHV connection. If I want to feed the projector the native rate of 1366x768 do I need to connect via RGBHV? Or can I connect via YPbPr and transfer the output rate of 1366x768 from the iScan?

I have looked at the Owner’s Manual and it is a little bit confusing. Table 1 in the VP-30 manual (as amended) for analog connection requirements for 1366x768 as RGBHV; does this mean that an RGBHV connection is required to use the 1366x768 output of the VP-30?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Adam Gregorich]

You can do either, but I would pull a RGBHV and an HDMI (for future). You can either pull a single minicable with 5 conductors, or pull 5 RG6 cables (just make sure they are the same length).

 

[obeckley]

In this world of separate video and audio processing, how will you handle the separation of video from audio as soon as you have two (or more) HDMI source components? Most sources have one HDMI output, right? That output will either have to go to the video processor or the audio processor. If you run them all into the video processor, then somehow you have to get the audio from the video processor over to the audio processor. However, don't most video processors only have one HDMI output that needs to go to the display? On the other hand, if you run all the sources into the audio processor first and then from there to the video processor, aren't all of the multiple inputs on your video processor a waste?

I must be missing something...

 

[RAF]

The correct order of connectivity is to pass all the HDMI signals into the receiver or pre/pro first, let that device extract all the pertinent audio information to send to the speakers and then pass the video signal unaltered to the video processor. There is absolutely no need to have a source provide more than one HDMI output since everything goes to the audio processor first. For "legacy" devices (those without HDMI capabilities) you still treat audio and video as before. Audio (via toslink, RCA or analog inputs) goes to the receiver and video goes to the video processor via DVI, component, S-Video or composite as offered/needed. (You can still send the video through your receiver first especially if you want to take advantage of on-screen menu functions but that's up to your specific needs and preferences.)

You do bring up an interesting point and a bit of a paradox in my particular set-up. Yes, if we lived in an "All HDMI World" then multiple HDMI inputs in a video processor would be superfluous. Everything would plug into the audio processor first and then one HDMI cable would go to the video processor. The biggest need for HDMI inputs would be in the audio processor. Ironically, while my VP (DVDO VP-50) has four HDMI inputs, my audio processor (DENON 3806) has only two. This should be the other way around. You can rest assured than my next audio processor will contain at least four HDMI inputs. However, at least the four HDMI inputs in my video processor serve a purpose. A couple of my components (specifically a Dish Network ViP622 HD-DVR and a Denon 2930ci Standard DVD player) offer HDMI output where there are no advanced audio codecs like TrueHD involved. To take some of the load off of my audio processor's HDMI inputs, I connect the HDMI outputs of these two components directly to my video processor and connect the audio through more traditional means to my audio processor. (Actually, I'm using proprietary "DenonLinkIII" between my 2930ci and the 3806 to provide stellar direct digital performance connecting those two units - especially evident when listening to SACD and DVD-A). In other words, the "extra" HDMI inputs on my video processor are being put to good use for now.

I would hope that future audio processors would greatly increase the number of HDMI inputs. At that point the number of HDMI inputs on video processors could be scaled back a bit. And I'd also like to see video processors start including more than one HDMI output since I have two displays in my HT (RPM and FP). That's something that is promised by some manufacturers in new models and I hope is adopted by all of them.

The use of an HDMI switch to provide multiple output is a major concern of mine right now because it doesn't involve simple switching. You need to use a repeater, not a switch or you risk a myriad of HDMI handshaking issues. I'm working on something right now which will soon be in the beta stage and I'm going to write it up once the project yields results. But that's another topic for another time and a little off the subject here. Stay tuned....

 

[Karim Nogas]

Thank-you RAF for an excellent article and thread. As someone who never got into audio separates, a separates approach to video may be just what I'm looking for. In 2000, I bought a HDTV which only has component inputs and a maximum display capacity of 1080i. It would seem a better use of funds to get a HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player and a quality video processor rather than a new display.

 

[RAF]

Thank you, Karim. I'm glad that you found this information helpful.

The advantage of a component approach to audio and video is that it accommodates a wide variety of needs and is extremely flexible in terms of future upgrading. However, to be fair there are some people who prefer the "one box" solution, minimizing connections and (to them) complexities. I can appreciate their position on this matter and am not suggesting that one approach is better than another. In my opinion components allow you to modify existing equipment (like in your case) to take advantage of emerging technologies without having to start all over each time. Of course, some people like to do just that.

Freedom of choice.

 

[cafink]

Thanks, Robert, for writing such an informative and well-written article. My current "home theater" set-up is quite modest, especially on the video side, and I've been looking to take the HD plunge in the near future. Your suggestions have been most helpful.

I have two simple questions I hope you might address.

First, how can I know that my DVD player (or any video source) is passing an unprocessed signal? You suggested using a DVD player that can output 480i via HDMI, but does that guarantee that the 480i signal being output is exactly the same as the video data stored on the disc? My current DVD player, for example, includes controls for adjusting the brightness and contrast of its output. I have left them on the default settings, but just because the player's video output is in the same format (480i) as a disc's native resolution doesn't mean that there is no video processing taking place, does it? How can I ensure an unprocessed signal?

The same basic question applies, of course, to the display device. Since I want to let my external video processor do all the work, I want to make sure my TV or projector doesn't do anything to the incoming video signal except display it as-is.


Second, don't most video processors introduce a slight delay in the video signal between source (DVD player) and destination (display)? If this is indeed the case, then sending the video signal through the processor but not the audio signal, as you suggest, would cause the video and audio to become out-of-sync, correct? Is there a way to compensate for this?

Thanks again.

 

[RAF]

Some excellent questions, Carl. Let me try to answer each of them in the order asked.

Regarding assuring that the player and the display provide a video path free from any other processing by these devices: This is an area where you really have to do your homework to find out if this is the case. I have come to the conclusion that although most of the major manufacturers offering 480i output over HDMI (and 1080p input to a 1080p display) generally offer a direct link from the DVD and to the display it doesn't hurt to dig a little deeper if it's not clearly spelled out in the specs. In my case (my Denon 2930ci DVD player and my HP MD5880n 1080p DLP display) I actually talked to technicians to find this out. Granted, I'm taking their word for this and I guess the only way to tell for sure would be to examine the circuit diagrams (if available) to see if the path is, in fact, "pure." In any event, in most cases I would think that there is minimal intrusion by the circuitry and where there are adjustment available for the output (like in your case) setting them to the neutral position would take case of most if not all problems. And keep in mind that brightness and contrast adjustments have nothing to do with the pixel structure which is the main focus of video processing. 480i will be 480i regardless of the brightness, etc. Advertising 480i over HDMI should convey the message that this means you have a direct link to the content on an SD DVD but, as you pointed out, it might not be the actual case. At least with "480i out over HDMI" you can be reasonably sure that there is minimal intrusion. The same goes for the display end of the video chain.

As to your second situation involving video processors introducing a slight delay in the video signal: while this is quite possible I haven't found it to be true with my DVDO iScan VP-50 (and the VP-30 that preceded it). Maybe I've just been lucky with my combination of components but maybe it's a function of how good the video processor does its job. However, if there were a noticeable audio/video sync problem (looking like a badly dubbed movie) there are several ways to handle this. For one thing, many of the newer receivers/pre-pros offer audio timing adjustments so you could match the audio to the video if needed. My Denon 3806 has an "Audio Delay" function which can be set from, if I recall, 0 to 200 msec and can have a separate setting for each input if required. Additionally, my VP-50 all has audio delay capability (I think they call it "lip sync") that works in a similar fashion. Of course, if I wanted to use the VP for audio delay it would have to precede the Denon 3806 in the chain. In my case it's just easier to send audio directly to the receiver. One less wire for analog sources. This is totally flexible for a variety of needs.

I hope that this answers most of your questions. Let me know if you need further clarification.

Take care.

 

[cafink]

That's exactly the sort of explanation I was looking for.

Thanks again, Robert!

 

[RAF]

Glad to help, Carl.

 

[RAF]

Note: The following arrived in my PM mailbox this morning and I felt that it was something of wider interest than just PM so I'm reposting it here.


Good question, Ryan (and one that should probably be discussed in the main forum thread instead of PM since it will reach a wider audience.)

Yes, the HDMI a/v output of your players needs to go "two places" but a splitter is not required (nor advised because of HDMI handshaking issues). Here's how I do it.

First I route the HDMI output from the devices that provide both HDMI video and audio to my HDMI capable receiver (or pre-pro). The AVR extracts the pertinent audio information and sends it to the speakers. At the same time the AVR has an HDMI output which then sends the video to my Video Processor. My AVR (Denon 3806 used as a pre-pro) does not alter the video signal as it passes into and out of the HDMI jacks so, in a manner of speaking it is functioning in the role of a HDMI "splitter" without any of the handshake issues that are possible if a poorly designed splitter were added to the HDMI path.

It is also possible to reverse the process (put the HDMI signal from the players into your video processor first and then send the audio out to your receiver/pre-pro) but you have to make sure that your VP supports audio throughput. The "AVR first" pathway is usually the favored method.

As a bonus, if your AVR or pre-pro supports audio delay you can compensate for any audio/video lip sync issues that might occur. I've never encountered such lip sync problems myself with my Denon 3806/DVDO VP50 combo, but maybe I've been lucky with choice of components or content. (Lip sync issues can usually also be corrected in the "VP first" method as long as that feature is available in the VP as well as audio output of course.)

For sources that don't need to use the HDMI output for audio I still use the "old" method of connecting the video output directly to my Video Processor and the audio directly to my AVR (usually via toslink, etc.). However, to use the lossless HD audio codecs you either need to go the HDMI route or get into using analog 5.1 (soon 7.1) inputs which gets a little more complicated. The uncompressed audio isn't sent over S/PDIF (optical and coaxial) for copy protection reasons so that's not an option with the newer players.

Hope this helps. I'm going to take the liberty of posting this in the pertinent thread if you don't mind.

Take care.

 

[Ryan Peddle]

Thanks Robert. I absolutely agree that there are still needs in the world of home audio video for Composite/SVid 2 channel anolog.

But an evolution has to take place at some point. As a point of interest I have a before and after picture of my receiver.


Before, just as it is right now...and the only think I have connected to it is one optical and one coax for digital audio, and obviously speakers (which the outboard amp would manage)....that's it.





And this is what I would want to have (with HDMI connections as well)...just an audio processor, and the HDMI out(s) would go to the VP where the component connection would be found. The audio processor would have 3 or 4 Coax dig, 3 or 4 optical dig, 3 or 4 HDMI and 2 out, a 5.1 to 7.1 analog in, and a 5.1 to 7.1 preout section.



Look at the real estate that is taken up with connections I will probably never use again. This is something that I think should be seriously thought about. I know that the enthusiast community would provide a martek place for this type of device.

 

[RAF]

An excellent visual, Ryan!

 

[Joe S.]

I have a small problem and a question to the VP owners. I recently purchased a VP30 and have been running pretty much everything through it (D*TV, DVD, Xbox 360, Wii, VCR, ???) with great success. This unit also came equipped with the deinterlacing card (102).

The problem is that for some 480i sources, especially the Directivo box, the image 'skips' or is 'jumpy' when decoding a 480i source and the scene pans or scans. When the Directivo box is outputing 720p on an HDTV station this never happens, only on SD channels at 480i. More unusual still is that this doesn't happen all the time, but it is frequent.

Any ideas on what could be causing this issue? Ways to correct it? Sometimes if I reset the VP30 by powering down it will correct, sometimes it does not. A little frustrating as otherwise I love the picture it provides, but the jumping is annoying (and paying $1K+ to be annoyed wasn't part of the plan )

Thanks for any thoughts...

 

[RAF]

Sorry to hear about your 480i problems with your DirecTivo box and the VP30. I still have my VP30 (now upstairs for my plasma TV and a Dish HDDVR) and have never experienced this particular problem. My VP30 also has the 102 mod card (which deals with 480i input). I also have a VP50 in the main theater and have never seen the symptoms you describe.

A few thoughts come to mind and I would suggest checking them out (if you haven't already.) The first line of defense would be to go over to the DVDO site and see if what you are experiencing is a known issue. Sometimes this is the quickest way to solve the problem which, of course, is not normal behavior for a VP30. There are a lot of variables in play here. You might have a 102 card that somehow wasn't seated properly when installed. It's an easy installation but I guess it might have been messed up a bit by the installer. Secondly, the 102 card might be flaky (or maybe was affected during the installation process if instructions weren't followed). Thirdly, there might be an issue with the VP30 itself and that's where DVDO would be able to help. Maybe a re-installation of the SW? Finally (and this would be the first thing I would suspect), if your 480i issues are limited to your DirecTV box then something about that box is producing less than pristine 480i and maybe the VP30 is just reacting to this. You mentioned that this happens mostly on 480i material from the DirecTV. Does this mean you have seen the same thing from other 480i sources (like a DVD player that outputs 480i?) If so, then the DirecTV box is not the problem but probably the 102 card.

Like I said, DVDO should be the one to have the answers and the cure because they deal with 1000's of units and I have a sample size of two. Please let us know what you find out and how this resolves itself. Here's hoping it's just something simple like a faulty cable.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Joe S.]

Good suggestions Robert, I'll peruse their website and call DVDO if needed. Yes, this only seems to happen with the SD satellite feed, the 480i (via HDMI) from the DVD player is just fine and never any chopiness.

I'll have to do some more troubleshooting...