Signs (2002) (1 Viewer)

[Ben Osborne]

Religious Faith is not the same thing as believing you won't choke on your dinner tonight or slip in your bathtub or have a plane accident. Religious Faith is a belief in something for which you have no proof.

Ernest, your definition of faith does indeed make faith incompatible with reason. If there are good reasons for believing something, it can't be faith, by your definition, but "reasonable expectation." That is a very tortuous definition that I believe is untenable. We have gone over many example of instances where a person must exercise a measure of trust in order to do something, since the desired outcome is not guaranteed. You refuse to call these things "faith" simply because they don't fit in with your definition of the word. You can stick with your definition, but the classic definition of "faith" would be something like "trusting obedience" or "acting on what you believe to be true." By that definition, faith and reason are completely compatible. You have given me no reason to prefer your definition, so I will stick with mine.

 

[Ernest Rister]

"whether or not his belief constitutes knowledge is a thorny philosophical issue."
Not for people of Faith.

 

[Mike Graham]

Gibson's character doesn't doubt the existence of God, but doubts that God is looking out for humanity due to what appeared to be the meaningless death of his wife. By the end of the film after he's been a witness to all the various events and coincidences that lead up to him saving his family, he has faith again.

 

[Ernest Rister]

GRAHAM
It's a kind of faith. It's an
intoxicating thing to believe in
something you can't see.
THE BEAM OF LIGHT FALLS ON THE WALL OF CORN CROPS LINING THE
BACKYARD. Graham steps right up to them. He hesitates and
then steps into the field of
CORN CROPS.
We can't see two feet in any direction. Six foot stalks of
corn line Graham on all sides. THE FLASHLIGHT THROWS A
WAVERING BEAM ON THE CROPS AHEAD OF HIM.
GRAHAM
You were always good at that...
THE BEAM OF HIS FLASHLIGHT FINDS A NARROW PATH. Graham
starts following it. His shoulders brush crops on either
side.
GRAHAM
Believing in things you couldn't
see.
(beat)
You would have been the first
person on that station wagon
wouldn't you? You and Morgan would
have been wrestling for that baby
monitor.
SOMETHING MOVES UP AHEAD.
Graham stops. HE SHINES HIS LIGHT DOWN THE PATH. Nothing
but crops disappearing into darkness.
GRAHAM
It'll be secretly kind of sad for
everybody, when this turns out to
be -- all just make believe.
THERE'S MOVEMENT RIGHT NEXT TO HIM. Graham spins and aims
the FLASHLIGHT AT THE CROPS TO HIS RIGHT. THE LIGHT ONLY
PENETRATES A FEW FEET INTO THE CROPS.
GRAHAM
(yelling)
You're wasting your time here!
--------------
MERRILL
(whispers)
Some people are probably thinking
this is the end of the world.
Graham turns his sleepy eyes away from the screen to Merrill.
GRAHAM
(whispers)
That's true.
Merrill looks his brother in the eyes. Beat.
MERRILL
(whispers)
Do you think it's a possibility?
GRAHAM
(whispers)
Yes.
MERRILL
(whispers)
How can you say that?
GRAHAM
(whispers)
That wasn't the answer you wanted?
MERRILL
(whispers)
Can you at least pretend to be like
you used to be? Give me some
comfort?
Beat. Graham thinks it over.
GRAHAM
(whispers)
... There are all different ways
you can tell that there's someone
really there watching out for us.
You see signs. Sometimes they're
little ones. You think of someone.
The phone rings. They're on the
phone... Sometimes they're big,
like fourteen lights hovering over
Mexico City.
(beat)
Sure, there are a lot of people
watching this who think this could
be a bad thing. But there are a
lot of people watching this, who
think it's a miracle. A sign of
God's existence. It's all in how
you look at things Merrill.
(beat)
What you have to decide is what
kind of person you are? Are you
the type who believes in miracles
and looks for signs or are you the
kind who believes, things just
happen by chance?
Beat. Merrill is deep in thought.
MERRILL
I was at this party once. I'm on a
couch with Sara Mckinney. She was
just sitting there, looking
beautiful and staring at me. I go
to lean in and kiss her and I
realize I have gum in my mouth. I
turn and take out the gum. Stuff
it in my paper cup next to the sofa
and turn around. Sara Mckinney
throws up all over herself.
(beat)
I knew the second it happened. It
was a miracle. I could have been
kissing her when she threw up.
That would have scarred me for
life. I may never have recovered.
Merrill looks at the TV screen. Beat.
MERRILL
I'm a miracle man. Those lights
are a miracle.
Graham smiles.
GRAHAM
(whispers)
There you go.
Beat.
MERRILL
(whispers)
So which type are you?
Beat.
GRAHAM
(whispers)
Do you feel comforted?
MERRILL
(whispers)
Yes.
GRAHAM
(whispers)
What does it matter then?
The two of them turn back to the silent screen of the
television. It's a long beat before Graham speaks.
GRAHAM
(whispers)
Do you know what Colleen's last
words were before they killed her?
Beat. Merrill turns and stares quietly at his brother.
GRAHAM
(whispers)
She said, "See", and then her eyes
glazed a bit and she said... "Tell
Merrill to swing away."
Merrill's mouth opens a bit. Graham turns and chuckles at
his expression.
GRAHAM
(whispers)
Do you know why she said that?
Merrill nods, "No."
GRAHAM
(whispers)
Because the nerve endings in her
brain were firing as she died, and
some random memory of us at one of
your baseball games popped into her
head.
(beat)
There is no one watching out for us
Merrill. We're all on our own.
------------
MERRILL
You know about signs Morgan? Not
like the ones people write on.
It's like if you poured a glass of
milk and you dropped the glass by
mistake and broke it before you
could drink it. Then you looked at
the milk carton and saw that the
milk was spoiled. They're things
that happen by chance or luck, but
make you feel that someone's
watching out for you.
The children think it over. Beat.
MORGAN
I once had a bad dream and I
couldn't wake up. I kicked at the
table next to my bed and something
fell on me and I woke up. It was a
picture of mom. She was smiling.
It made me feel safe... You mean
like that?
Beat.
MERRILL
Yeah, like that.
(beat)
I believe in signs Morgan. I think
there's someone watching out for
us. I got to believe he's going to
make sure we're all right in the
end.
---------------
MERRILL
You didn't think we'd make it.
Beat.
GRAHAM
No.
MERRILL
(low voice)
Listen, there's things I can take
and a couple things I can't and one
of them I can't take, is when my
older brother --
(voice cracks)
-- who is everything I want to be,
starts losing faith in things. I
saw your eyes last night.
(beat)
I don't want to ever see your eyes
like that again, okay? I'm
serious.
Merrill's face is hard. He looks shaken. Graham stares at
the conviction in his younger brother's expression.
GRAHAM
(soft)
Okay.
--------------
MORGAN'S VOICE
Dad.
HIS SON'S VOICE MAKES HIM STOP. Graham starts crying. Everybit of sadness trapped in his body is released. He looks down through tears and tears at Morgan.
MORGAN
Did someone save me?
GRAHAM
Yeah baby. I think someone did.

 

[DaveGTP]

I will make a quick comment here as a newcomer to this ancient, revived thread
As far as the existence of God being proven to Mel's character.
Personally, I enjoyed the movie quite a bit. I'm very much agnostic. I saw the movie with my normal mostly skeptical P.O.V.
Personally, you can see the chain of events as a couple of weird coincidences. If it happened to me, that's quite possibly how I would react to them. There was no indisputable proof. It still took Faith to conclude that there was a divine will behind the events. Thus, I enjoyed the movie quite a bit, as I felt that there was a couple of ways you could view it.
Thus, in my eyes, there was no 100% proof of anything. Definitely still faith in there to conclude some sort of Divine Intervention.

 

[Ernest Rister]

"Definitely still faith in there to conclude some sort of Divine Intervention."

*Some*?

Graham is certainly convinced -- hence the point of the movie...he is convinced beyond doubt. He no longer needs *faith*, he has seen *proof*. At least from his perspective. Not yours, not Ben's -- his. Graham admits that God has shown his hand. Therefore, he does not regain his *faith*, he has gained *knowledge*.

Faith is belief without knowledge. Graham receives knowledge. Graham does not regain *faith*.

 

[Chris Farmer]

So then Ernest, what was it when Abraham trusted God after having not just seen signs of God, but speaking to him face-to-face? According to Paul, Abraham showed faith, and "that faith was credited to him as righteousness," a credit Abraham redeemed when he had enough faith in God that he would offer up Isaac to be sacrificed when God asked. Abraham certainly had absolute knowledge and proof of God's existence, he'd spoken to God himself, and yet it was still described as faith. Faith and knowledge are not mutually conflicting.

 

[John Doran]

Quote:



Graham is certainly convinced -- hence the point of the movie...he is convinced beyond doubt. He no longer needs *faith*, he has seen *proof*. At least from his perspective. Not yours, not Ben's -- his. Graham admits that God has shown his hand. Therefore, he does not regain his *faith*, he has gained *knowledge*.




again, ernest, i think you're confusing the concepts of "faith", "conviction", "knowledge, and "proof"; you can be 100% convinced of the truth of a proposition without the truth of that proposition being demonstrable, whether in and of itself, or just by you. so, i am as sure of the pythagorean theorem as i am about anything - i am sure of it. but i can't prove it, you know? i can't prove it, even though i know that someone can.

on the other hand, i am also utterly convinced of the existence of other minds - that despite the fact that the only thoughts and experiences to which i have direct access are my own, i am nonetheless not the only person having such thoughts and experiences. and this is a belief which is impossible to prove in principle.

so. just "feeling sure" isn't the same thing as "knowing", especially if "knowing" requires "proof", since you can quite obviously have an overwhelmingly strong felt-sense of certainty without having anything like a sound proof for the truth of the belief of which you are certain.

and isn't this where graham comes out in signs? i mean, it's pretty obvious that the coincidences he experiences in the movie do not by any stretch of the imagination constitute a "proof" of anything, since it's logically possible that they were just that: coincidences. i suppose that you could argue that they count as a demonstration of god's existence to him, but, on the one had, why should we believe that? because he comes to believe in god's existence (again) with maximal certainty? that can't be it, because, as we have seen, it's entirely possible to have conviction without support - it's called "faith".

on the other hand, having a strong belief in the truth of a proposition, but on the basis of a bad proof can't constitute "knowledge", can it? if i believe that the earth is round, but believe it because i read it in a comic, and i always believe what i read in comics; if that's why i believe the earth is round, can i really be said to know it?

in the end, though, it seems to me that, by your lights, it's just not possible to have (religious) faith, since anyone with maximal conviction in, say, any of the central christian theistic doctrines, and who perhaps also has at least some rational basis for those beliefs, actually knows them. which would describe a vast number of religious believers.

doesn't that strike you as enormously counter-intuitive?

 

[DaveGTP]

Faith is belief without knowledge. Graham receives knowledge. Graham does not regain *faith*.

Sure he does. He sure didn't get enough knowledge to be convinced in the belief of God. There wasn't enough facts to prove it. Perhaps there was some circumstantial evidence. There was no proof. That's where the faith has to come in.
It isn't like you just suddenly have Faith based on nothing. Normal faith is based on "some" knowledge. Christianity is based on the Bible, written by people, parables and stories. Islam is based on the writings of their prophet as well. Etc, etc.
Otherwise, you'd call it "faith" if I believed that little green leprachauns created the world, or that the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were really prophets of the Lord. All religions have some sort of fact or experiences behind them. They didn't spring out of nowhere.