A few words about…™ Unforgiven — in 4k UHD Blu-ray

The new Blu-ray alone is worth the price of admission 5 Stars

The new 4k UHD of Unforgiven is an interesting case study.

Originally released via LaserDisc in 480i, and later in High definition via the original HD, and then Blu-ray, which as I recall, were both single layer. Good for the time in which they were created, and presumably (at least the latter) from a 1080i master.

In 2011, for the film’s 20th anniversary, it was re-issued, possibly from the same master, and on a BD-50, with appropriate extra content, in digi-book form.

Reality aside, one must presume that somewhere between the original production of duping and protection elements, and any work that may have been performed in 2010-11, the original negative was severely damaged.

As promoted, either what was released in 2011 was a restored version of the film, or whomever was marketing the release didn’t like a perceived lack of sizzle, hence a brilliant new “restoration.”

I’ve now had the opportunity to compare three variants of the film.

The 2011 Blu-ray, the 2017 Blu-ray, and the 2017 4k UHD.

My comments must come with a caveat, as I’ll not be set up with a proper 4k OLED panel for a couple of weeks, and hence will update these words.

What I’m seeing in 4k projection of all three discs is as follows:

The 2011, despite the possibility that it’s derived from 1080i, is a quality affair. Very few digital artifacts, and even fewer that would be noted by the average viewer, even in projection.

In comparison to the 2017, the upgrade becomes very obvious, not only in stability, but in overall resolution, black levels, grain structure, etc.

The new Blu-ray alone is worth the price of admission.

Comparing the new 4k UHD/HDR with the new Blu-ray is another affair entirely.

At least via projection, blacks take over the image, with a decided loss of shadow detail. The overall image becomes dark. Again, let me advise that this may change measurably via flat panel viewing, and different scores may become necessary for projection vs OLED.

More interesting, is that the difference between the 4k image, as up-rezzed, and the 4k image as viewed from the 4k disc, are not much different, aside from HDR.

There simply doesn’t appear to be true 4k information in the original negative, which causes me to question whether a 4k release was warranted.

What we do know, is that every bit of information, regardless of actual resolution, has been harvested, and finalized in pure 4k.

In my opinion much of this becomes moot, as the included Blu-ray, which is only available packaged with the 4k, is alone worth the price of admission.

Final note. On the audio side, we go from an old Dolby Digital stream to DTS-HD MA 5.1, which especially on higher end equipment, is a huge upgrade.

As an UPDATE:

Run on a Sony OLED, the imagery pops, with superb, rich blacks, and a far superior image to projection except in bright scenes.

Zero problems, with the exception of the four or so seconds, which are duly noted.

Image – 5

Audio – 5 (DTS-HD MA 5.1)

Pass / Fail – Pass

Upgrade – Yes

Highly Recommended

RAH

Published by

Robert Harris

author

123 Comments

  1. RAH,

    So you're saying the BD release from 2017 in this 4K/UHD release is superior to the 2011 BD Release? Also, that you prefer that 2017 BD up-rezzed to 4K to the 4K/UHD disc? You don't think the HDR helps the 4K/UHD disc over the 2017 BD?

    Anyhow, I think it will look great on my OLED65E6P panel.

    I'll buy this 4K/UHD release once it discounts down to a more reasonable price for me. It's still $32.59 at Amazon. It needs to be closer to the $20.00 mark before I buy it.

  2. If it looks too dark in 4K the first suspect is incorrect or not existing tone mapping. That can even apply to an Oled with 700 nits when the disc is mastered for 4000 nits. On projectors with 1/10 or less of the nits required all bets are off without knowing exactly how the stuff is mapped. As long as the nit range from 0-50 or so which is coded as absolute values in HDR (like the rest) is not mapped to the same on the display, image darkness, blacks and shadow detail are affected. Displays that just push everything "somehow" down to the max nit level of the display look usually too dark.

  3. Michel_Hafner

    If it looks too dark in 4K the first suspect is incorrect or not existing tone mapping. That can even apply to an Oled with 700 nits when the disc is mastered for 4000 nits. On projectors with 1/10 or less of the nits required all bets are off without knowing exactly how the stuff is mapped. As long as the nit range from 0-50 or so which is coded as absolute values in HDR (like the rest) is not mapped to the same on the display, image darkness, blacks and shadow detail are affected. Displays that just push everything "somehow" down to the max nit level of the display look usually too dark.

    Which is why the release needs to also be viewed on a panel. For the majority of 4k HDR discs, the Sony projector, in its latest firmware incarnation, does an adequate job of delivering an image.

    There are some films, however, that push the boundaries, and this may be one of them.

    The Sony OLED runs at 640 nits in Cinema mode, and up to 700 in others. The latest LG can do 800.

    QLED can go higher, but drops in overall quality.

    This may be one more situation in which Shakespeare was correct.

    "The fault… is not in the stars."

    There is a huge difference between theatrical presentation and home theater.

    While one can add a new Christie 4k to their home theater environment, that occurrence, especially if college tuition and mortgages must be paid, might possibly be divorce inducing.

    If post houses are creating discs that must be run at 4000 nits, the question might be, "why?"

    Especially when OLED yields the finest quality imagery currently available.

    Looking to the near future, when Panasonic delivers its new OLED line, being touted as the new nirvana for certain Hollywood post houses, the number will be 1000 nits at 65", but with no upgrade ability to run Dolby Vision.

  4. Robert Crawford

    RAH,

    So you're saying the BD release from 2017 in this 4K/UHD release is superior to the 2011 BD Release? Also, that you prefer that 2017 BD up-rezzed to 4K to the 4K/UHD disc? You don't think the HDR helps the 4K/UHD disc over the 2017 BD?

    Anyhow, I think it will look great on my OLED65E6P panel.

    I'll buy this 4K/UHD release once it discounts down to a more reasonable price for me. It's still $32.59 at Amazon. It needs to be closer to the $20.00 mark before I buy it.

    Yes, and yes. But I don't want to raise any red flags regarding the 4k HDR, as it may simply not play nicely with the current abilities of home theater projectors.

    I'm presuming that the disc will be superior on a high end panel. I've just not seen it.

    The inclusion, in this set of a Blu-ray, derived from the new 4k scan, being uprezzed by the Oppo, allows viewers the potential to have the best of both worlds.

    Which one desires with a film of this import.

  5. Robert Harris

    Which is why the release needs to also be viewed on a panel. For the majority of 4k HDR discs, the Sony projector, in its latest firmware incarnation, does an adequate job of delivering an image.

    Yes, Sony is far better than my current JVC here which forced me to load a custom gamma created with a non JVC tool by some private volunteer. A title like "Arrival" remains a challenge but most look adequate now. If one has the Panasonic UHD player there is a new dynamic range slider when watching HDR natively which can help with too dark looking titles when used in moderation (1-3, not above 5 or 6). Recommended for checking out.

  6. Robert Harris

    I believe it to be a historically accurate statement, to report that for the past decade, at no time have all parts of the industry been working in any sort of synchronization.

    I agree completely. As much as I love the 4K world I think everyone gets a different experience. Your projector vs a flat panel and even all the flat panels out there. I do love your quick reviews because they give me a starting point. I have a Calibrated (by Tyler Pruitt) Samsung 85" flat panel at 500nits (a little short of this) it does a good job but doesn't match up to the newer TVs out now.

    1. The LG B/E/G6 is about 540nits after calibration. It rolls off a bit earlier from the ST2084 curve than this year’s models, as well as the new Sony. The new LG models stay close to the required nit level before rolling off faster and appear to have less aggressive ABL (from my memory). It’s a brighter panel overall. The Sony BVM-X300 hard clips at 1000 nits but sticks to the rest of the requirements quite precisely. All of measurements are done with the K-M CS-1000A.

      From what I’m reading elsewhere, but am awaiting verification, it seems most HDR releases have peaks well under 1000 nits (300-600 nit range). Just because they are on a 1000 or 4000 nit monitor, it doesn’t mean the full range is being used.

  7. Robert Crawford

    That's right! I own the 65E6 so it should be interesting to see how this disc plays on that panel.

    Hopefully fine, unless 4000 nits is madatory.

    The E6 is a beautiful panel. That's the HTF standard issue, is it not?

    All staff gets one?

  8. Robert Harris

    Hopefully fine, unless 4000 nits is madatory.

    The E6 is a beautiful panel. That's the HTF standard issue, is it not?

    All staff gets one?

    Actually, I think I'm the only HTF Moderator with one. I know Matt Hough HTF Reviewer has one too.

  9. E6 calibrated ranges from 650 to 730(IIRC). Mine, calibrated by Robert's calibrator is close to 720 nits, and I love the look. Im sure one that can make 1000 is ideal, but in a dark room, certain HDR spectral highlights already make me wince. Plus, for an OLED to havce the Ultra HD Premium certification, since it has zero black, it only needs 0.005 to 540 nits, and the 2016's are well above that.

  10. Robert Harris

    If post houses are creating discs that must be run at 4000 nits, the question might be, "why?"

    Agreed. But their response will probably be along the lines of, "Because we can."

  11. I am by no means an expert but from everything I have read good tone mapping is as important as reaching the 1,000 nit threshold, or in this case the 4,000 nit one, which no consumer TV reaches anyway. A lot of televisions have 600 nits and do fine, while others have 600 nits with poor tone mapping and color volume and manage much worse. Obviously the nits are important, but those other facts are a big deal too.

    I have a high-end LCD with 1400 nits and a bias light for great blacks. I haven't had any issue with Warner discs yet like some others have, so far. I have seen a few UHDs that are noticeably darker than their BD equivalents though, like Jupiter Ascending and X-Men: First Class. I usually assume this is an HDR grading choice, as it might be here. Eager to see for myself in a couple days!

  12. Robert Crawford

    I thought he had a 65B6P, but now that I think about it, I think he as both models with one of them in his bedroom and the other in his home theater.

    Yes, I think that's right.

  13. Robert Crawford

    RAH,

    I'll buy this 4K/UHD release once it discounts down to a more reasonable price for me. It's still $32.59 at Amazon. It needs to be closer to the $20.00 mark before I buy it.

    Warner's 4K releases haven't come down in price at all on Amazon after initial release. Goodfellas looks like it's gone out of print, Sully, Argo and The Lego Movie are still going for the full retail price. Third party sellers are listing these titles at discounted prices but shipping is often more expensive than with Amazon (at least for us across the pond). Unforgiven is being released on Amazon.co.uk next week and the price is more reasonable, shipping and tax deduction for export factored in. I also see that Amazon.ca has it for the same price in Canadian dollars, as the US version – that has to be a better deal?

  14. titch

    Warner's 4K releases haven't come down in price at all on Amazon after initial release. Goodfellas looks like it's gone out of print, Sully, Argo and The Lego Movie are still going for the full retail price. Third party sellers are listing these titles at discounted prices but shipping is often more expensive than with Amazon (at least for us across the pond). Unforgiven is being released on Amazon.co.uk next week and the price is more reasonable, shipping and tax deduction for export factored in. I also see that Amazon.ca has it for the same price in Canadian dollars, as the US version – that has to be a better deal?

    You bring up some good points about Warner titles. The lowest I've seen them has been $24.99. As to those other Amazon sites, unfortunately, there isn't much difference with the US Amazon due to shipping costs.

    I just added this title to my Amazon Price Tracking List so if it hits the $24.99 mark, I'll buy it then.

  15. Im glad to have read the review – I do plan to get this, also when the price drops a little bit more. i can wait because I streamed it over the weekend. Its a great film and Ill be glad to add it to my UHD collection. After I read the reviews, sometimes it seems like it's a good idea that a Blu-ray disc is included ! 🙂

  16. Trying to make sense of the 4000 nits situation, vs the 650 to 1000 that's achievable for home theater. And if I'm not clear on it, there are possibly two or three others who need a bit more info.

    Here's some help.

    I've reached out to a friend, who is one of the top colorists.

    Mastering generally occurs on two different platforms, either a Sony x300 at 1000 nits, or a Dolby Vision Pulsar at 4000 nits.

    His take is that when done correctly, its as if you're looking through a window to the real outside world. With HDR there is finally enough dynamic range to give faces the contour and depth that's been missing in the past.

    As to nits, the 4000 number is a bit misleading, as it's rarely hit. Highlights rarely get above 2-3000 nits, as anything brighter will create an unnatural look.

    HDR works best with normal lighting, with good dynamic range, and not on dark sequences.

    When mastering for the forthcoming Dolby Vision HDR, a metadata file is created that instructs the TV as to what parameters to use for the viewing the images.

    On properly calibrated new high end modern flat panels, we should be seeing everything except the upper 15%, the brightest highlights. Color rendition and image detail in the low shadows to upper mid-tones should be fairly accurate to what is seen in the color rooms. Midtone resolution, color saturation should be much better, and significant different to what consumers are used to.

    This all presumes that the new mastering is performed by someone who understands how to take advantage of the new technology.

  17. Can't help feeling a little disappointed by all the feedback I've heard about this new release. Between the quantity of rubbish titles released so far, and the mixed reviews for many of the better releases, the new format sure is off to a slow start!

  18. Robert Crawford

    I'll buy this 4K/UHD release once it discounts down to a more reasonable price for me. It's still $32.59 at Amazon. It needs to be closer to the $20.00 mark before I buy it.

    20 bucks for a double-dip of a BD with superior improvements is worthwhile to me, as well.
    But I will await the updated review from RAH.
    If the 4K disc reveals itself as being superior, then I will support this release by paying the full price, as well.
    Here's to hoping for that OLED revelation with Unforgiven.

  19. Robert Harris

    Looking to the near future, when Panasonic delivers its new OLED line, being touted as the new nirvana for certain Hollywood post houses, the number will be 1000 nits at 65", but with no upgrade ability to run Dolby Vision.

    Is there a projected street date and price for this aforementioned Panasonic OLED?

  20. PMF

    Is there a projected street date and price for this aforementioned Panasonic OLED?

    I believe, June. And as to the 4k of Unforgiven, I do know that a great deal of expense and effort went into creating a superior product.

    I expect it to be gorgeous on an OLED.

    We all are aware of the problems of HDR, along with the limitations of projection in that regard.

  21. Of course Amazon couldn't ship my pre-order. No area stores have it in stock that I have noticed so far.

    Amazon is going to get a very nasty phone call from me. I have had it with all the Disney/WB feud. I really want out of their greed works/customers suffer business model.

  22. Tino

    Really? I'm on the app right now and it says $39.99. Which is what I paid. Strange.

    Damn…… I love the film, but I can have some patience as that is too expensive for my taste. Hell, I won't buy it at $37.99 nor $32.99

  23. I preordered for $37.99. I have been using BBuy mostly because tax is less than Amazon and I get points, but Amazon was cheaper. Still, I dont like waiting so Amazon gets cancelled, I want the movie.

  24. Mike Frezon

    I told everybody "Tequila Tuesdays" was just going to lead to trouble…

    And yet, I had no trouble with "Tequila Mockingbird" – Peck's finest performance; to the point that "Dog Day Afternoon" paid homage to his character by scripting Pacino to yell, "Aticus, Aticus".:wacko:

    …and now, back to our regularly scheduled program of "Unforgiven"; or is that UHDforgiven?:roll:

  25. Robert Harris

    The new 4k UHD of Unforgiven is an interesting case study.

    Originally released via LaserDisc in 480i, and later in High definition via the original HD, and then Blu-ray, which as I recall, were both single layer. Good for the time in which they were created, and presumably (at least the latter) from a 1080i master.

    In 2011, for the film’s 20th anniversary, it was re-issued, possibly from the same master, and on a BD-50, with appropriate extra content, in digi-book form.

    Reality aside, one must presume that somewhere between the original production of duping and protection elements, and any work that may have been performed in 2010-11, the original negative was severely damaged.

    As promoted, either what was released in 2011 was a restored version of the film, or whomever was marketing the release didn’t like a perceived lack of sizzle, hence a brilliant new “restoration.”

    I’ve now had the opportunity to compare three variants of the film.

    The 2011 Blu-ray, the 2017 Blu-ray, and the 2017 4k UHD.

    My comments must come with a caveat, as I’ll not be set up with a proper 4k OLED panel for a couple of weeks, and hence will update these words.

    What I’m seeing in 4k projection of all three discs is as follows:

    The 2011, despite the possibility that it’s derived from 1080i, is a quality affair. Very few digital artifacts, and even fewer that would be noted by the average viewer, even in projection.

    In comparison to the 2017, the upgrade becomes very obvious, not only in stability, but in overall resolution, black levels, grain structure, etc.

    The new Blu-ray alone is worth the price of admission.

    Comparing the new 4k UHD/HDR with the new Blu-ray is another affair entirely.

    At least via projection, blacks take over the image, with a decided loss of shadow detail. The overall image becomes dark. Again, let me advise that this may change measurably via flat panel viewing, and different scores may become necessary for projection vs OLED.

    More interesting, is that the difference between the 4k image, as up-rezzed, and the 4k image as viewed from the 4k disc, are not much different, aside from HDR.

    There simply doesn’t appear to be true 4k information in the original negative, which causes me to question whether a 4k release was warranted.

    What we do know, is that every bit of information, regardless of actual resolution, has been harvested, and finalized in pure 4k.

    In my opinion much of this becomes moot, as the included Blu-ray, which is only available packaged with the 4k, is alone worth the price of admission.

    Final note. On the audio side, we go from an old Dolby Digital stream to DTS-HD MA 5.1, which especially on higher end equipment, is a huge upgrade.

    Image – 5

    Audio – 5 (DTS-HD MA 5.1)

    Pass / Fail – Pass

    Upgrade – Yes

    Highly Recommended

    RAH

    So this will be available in regular blu ray as well? Amazon had nothing on it.

  26. A fellow on another forum has reviewed and compared the new standard and 4K Blu-rays and his findings are not promising. Of particular concern is the evidence of significant ringing in at least one scene. Two examples he shared:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    😮

    Between this fellow's comments and RAH's comments about the 4K being too dark, I'm not in any hurry to buy this new release.

    For those that wish to eyeball their own discs, the above scene is chapter 17. That ringing is present on BOTH the new standard Blu-ray and 4K Blu-ray. More than one person has verified the presence of the ringing. One person also shared a crop of that windmill on the older Blu-ray and there's no ringing.

    Mark

  27. Those shots look terrible. I definitely will wait on this one to see more comments and reviews. At least that's one of the benefits of the release being priced so high right now — I wasn't going to buy it until the price dropped anyway.

  28. Mark Booth

    A fellow on another forum has reviewed and compared the new standard and 4K Blu-rays and his findings are not promising. Of particular concern is the evidence of significant ringing in at least one scene. Two examples he shared:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    😮

    Between this fellow's comments and RAH's comments about the 4K being too dark, I'm not in any hurry to buy this new release.

    For those that wish to eyeball their own discs, the above scene is chapter 17. That ringing is present on BOTH the new standard Blu-ray and 4K Blu-ray. More than one person has verified the presence of the ringing. One person also shared a crop of that windmill on the older Blu-ray and there's no ringing.

    Mark

    This is an accurate representation of the shot. It's a pan, and the problems exists from the head of shot until stop motion, about four seconds total.

    The problem is in the master, as the same exists in both 4k as well as Blu.

  29. Our old friend and former moderator Michal Reuben at that other site thinks it looks terrific.

    "The 4K/HDR rendition of Unforgiven may not be the disc you drop into the player to wow your friends, but it fulfills the format's promise of bringing classic cinema into the home with new levels of accuracy and intensity. It's the first UHD I've reviewed that deserves highest marks for its treatment of a 4K source—not only for what it does, but also for what it does not do."

  30. Tino

    Our old friend and former moderator Michal Reuben at that other site thinks it looks terrific.

    "The 4K/HDR rendition of Unforgiven may not be the disc you drop into the player to wow your friends, but it fulfills the format's promise of bringing classic cinema into the home with new levels of accuracy and intensity. It's the first UHD I've reviewed that deserves highest marks for its treatment of a 4K source—not only for what it does, but also for what it does not do."

    He and I agree. While the problem should not have made it through QC, it does pass very quickly, and for some will get lost in the pan.

  31. In these early stages of classic 4K UHD releases, it would be ironic if this of all titles became the first transfer to be reviewed and deemed as "unforgiven". The only way for this market to succeed will be if they take the greatest of care within the handling of their handling transfers. But, then again, we already know that.

  32. gadgtfreek

    I find that windmill hard to believe and will have to see it for myself.

    Im a little more than half way thru watching it on my OLED and just made it to the windmill scene. Much ado about nothing imo as the anomaly is not visible in motion as RAH mentioned.

    I think Unforgiven looks great compared to the hysteria being bounded about it looking bad.

    Not the best 4K I've seen but a worthy upgrade in my opinion.

  33. Tino

    Im a little more than half way thru watching it on my OLED and just made it to the windmill scene. Much ado about nothing imo as the anomaly is not visible in motion as RAH mentioned.

    I think Unforgiven looks great compared to the hysteria being bounded about it looking bad.

    Not the best 4K I've seen but a worthy upgrade in my opinion.

    That's all I needed to hear, but I'll still wait on better pricing before I buy it.

  34. Tino

    Im a little more than half way thru watching it on my OLED and just made it to the windmill scene. Much ado about nothing imo as the anomaly is not visible in motion as RAH mentioned.

    I think Unforgiven looks great compared to the hysteria being bounded about it looking bad.

    Not the best 4K I've seen but a worthy upgrade in my opinion.

    Ive noticed a lot of reviews and personal comments on other sites creating hysteria, and there being no reason for it.

  35. Robert Crawford

    That's all I needed to hear, but I'll still wait on better pricing before I buy it.

    Same here. I'm glad it's difficult to notice and only lasts for a few seconds. That's one of the problems with still shots online — they lack context. I can definitely live with that for such an excellent film. I have the title on price alert, and now just need it to drop to my budget level.

  36. Scott Merryfield

    Same here. I'm glad it's difficult to notice and only lasts for a few seconds. That's one of the problems with still shots online — they lack context. I can definitely live with that for such an excellent film. I have the title on price alert, and now just need it to drop to my budget level.

    As far as I can tell from a purely technical perspective, it's a tracking pan, which on the negative would have shutter distortion. I'm betting that whatever auto pass was used digitally, couldn't figure out what it was seeing, and tried to steady, and build imagery and sharpness was there was none.

    Absolutely should have been caught in QC, and I would surmise that it will be corrected.

  37. Robert Harris

    As far as I can tell from a purely technical perspective, it's a tracking pan, which on the negative would have shutter distortion. I'm betting that whatever auto pass was used digitally, couldn't figure out what it was seeing, and tried to steady, and build imagery and sharpness was there was none.

    Absolutely should have been caught in QC, and I would surmise that it will be corrected.

    To the extent of a recall?

  38. Finished it. What a terrific film. One of Eastwoods best.

    I didn't notice any EE or sharpening on my OLED. Other than the "windmill anomaly" that can't be seen in motion, the transfer is very good. And I briefly compared it to the blu Ray included and the 4K is noticeably better.

    I'm glad I purchased it rather than rely on opinions of random posters from another site that is famous for hyperbole ( although I do like their reviewers).

    I suggest people see it with their own eyes and decide for themselves. I'm glad I did. A worthy upgrade.

  39. Tino

    Finished it. What a terrific film. One of Eastwoods best.

    I didn't notice any EE or sharpening on my OLED. Other than the "windmill anomaly" that can't be seen in motion, the transfer is very good. And I briefly compared it to the blu Ray included and the 4K is noticeably better.

    I'm glad I purchased it rather than rely on opinions of random posters from another site that is famous for hyperbole ( although I do like their reviewers).

    I suggest people see it with their own eyes and decide for themselves. I'm glad I did. A worthy upgrade.

    I can't wait to watch next weekend!

  40. Michael Osadciw

    The LG B/E/G6 is about 540nits after calibration. It rolls off a bit earlier from the ST2084 curve than this year's models, as well as the new Sony. The new LG models stay close to the required nit level before rolling off faster and appear to have less aggressive ABL (from my memory). It's a brighter panel overall. The Sony BVM-X300 hard clips at 1000 nits but sticks to the rest of the requirements quite precisely. All of measurements are done with the K-M CS-1000A.

    From what I'm reading elsewhere, but am awaiting verification, it seems most HDR releases have peaks well under 1000 nits (300-600 nit range). Just because they are on a 1000 or 4000 nit monitor, it doesn't mean the full range is being used.

    Thanks Michael

    I just wish I understood it. 😛

  41. FYI, 540 nits is a bit low from calibrations I have seen on 65" E and C models. My E6 65" starts to roll off and I guess tone map in the 720 realm.

    Its not uncommon for E6 and C6 models to run 650-720 after cal.

  42. Pre-calibration the nits are higher. If one calibrates starting at code 503-512 to ensure a measured target of 93-103nits, then the max you will hit is 540nits peak. If one ignores this step and keeps 503-512 at the 120-130 or so nits that the HDR/Standard mode is preset in, then yes, the top end will be brighter as will the rest of the video range from 65-512 (black at 64). The goal should be to stick to ST2084 as close as possible – not brighter or darker by large amounts – rather than to set it at the greatest achievable peak. I also find that cheaper meters give me brigher readings than what my Konica-Minolta gives me, and I only trust my K-M.

  43. View attachment 38252I was implying nothing other than a $30K laboratory meter will give results with more precision than what can be obtained from a sub $10K meter (most cases). Since the topic of OLEDs was brought up in this thread as discussion of cd/m2, for anyone interested in the OLED results, the OLED will give you a great image when set correctly. The graphs above were taken from a 55B6P I calibrated. Excellent grayscale performance with most x/y within +/-0.004 (raw data and graph on left) and sticks very close to ST2084 (graphs on right). In the table below, you can see how the measured light output (top number) is close to the target light output for the associated code (fourth number down). Stick to the rules, follow the curve, and all of your UHD content will be on its way to being faithfully reproduced as best as the "x"-generation OLED will allow.

    This thread has now made me want to pick up Unforgiven. The topic of how it looks on projectors and panels has got me very interested. So the studio just got a sale, which I believe is the whole point of these threads.

  44. Michael Osadciw

    View attachment 38252I was implying nothing other than a $30K laboratory spectroradiometer will give results with more precision than what can be obtained from many sub $10K meters (most cases). Since the topic of OLEDs was brought up in this thread as discussion of cd/m2, for anyone interested in the OLED results, the OLED will give you a great image when set correctly, especially the 2017 models. The graphs above were taken from a 55B6P I calibrated. Excellent grayscale performance with most x/y within +/-0.004 (raw data and graph on left) and sticks very close to ST2084 (graphs on right). In the table below, you can see how the measured light output (top number) is close to the target light output for the associated code (fourth number down). Stick to the rules, follow the curve, and all of your UHD content will be on its way to being faithfully reproduced as best as the "x"-generation OLED will allow.

    This thread has now made me want to pick up Unforgiven. The topic of how it looks on projectors and panels has got me very interested. So the studio just got a sale, which I believe is the whole point of these threads.

    Actually, the point of the threads is to honestly make consumers aware of the quality or problems of releases, before they purchase.

    And to explain problems, whenever possible, when they are found to exist.

  45. From the Cannes film festival;

    CANNES, France Clint Eastwood does not rule out making another Western, he said on Saturday as he presented a 25th anniversary restored copy of "Unforgiven" at the Cannes Film Festival.

    "When I read the ("Unforgiven") script 25 years ago, I always thought that this would be a good last Western for me to do," said the 86-year-old actor-director.

    "And it was the last Western, because I have never read one that worked as well as this one since that.

    "But who knows, maybe something will come up in the future," said Eastwood, who made his name in the TV series "Rawhide" and the so-called spaghetti Westerns of the 1960s, now considered classics.

    "Unforgiven" won four Oscars including Best Picture and Best Director for Eastwood who also starred.

  46. Robert Harris

    Actually, the point of the threads is to honestly make consumers aware of the quality or problems of releases, before they purchase. And to explain problems, whenever possible, when they are found to exist.

    Yes, Robert, I agree and that's very true. After all, that's why I reviewed DVDs and Blu-rays on this website from 2003-2011. It's been a while since I've visited. It's good to be back 🙂 Hi!

  47. Michael Osadciw

    Yes, Robert, I agree and that's very true. After all, that's why I reviewed DVDs and Blu-rays on this website from 2003-2011. It's been a while since I've visited. It's good to be back 🙂 Hi!

    Thought I'd not seen you 'round these parts lately.

    Please check your weapons with the mod. They'll be retuned when you leave town.

    The .32, also please…

  48. Robert, can you discuss what your smoothing/blur settings are when reviewing both old and new films (do you have different settings for each) ? It seems to me when I watch films on my OLED B6 that they seem to have some sped up smoothing motion and look more like video than film (I don't see too many new movies in the theater so I don't know if that is what they should like, but what about older movies) ?
    Thanks.

  49. Robert Harris

    Thought I'd not seen you 'round these parts lately.

    Please check your weapons with the mod. They'll be retuned when you leave town.

    The .32, also please…

    Hi Robert – I've deleted my post (can you edit out my quote in your post?). I didn't intend at all to come across brash but thought I was being helpful to those who'd be interested. I've handed over my .32 to you in your end of town. I'm not interested in any showdown with any member here. Just passing through. Ain't looking for trouble in this wild west. 😉

    Back to the title of this thread, you wrote:

    "What we do know, is that every bit of information, regardless of actual resolution, has been harvested, and finalized in pure 4k"

    I was a bit confused with this because at the beginning of your review who said that it could have been inferred that the original negative was severely damaged. But this disc has come from a scan of the negative which has been in good order? Or from a different print?

  50. Michael Osadciw

    Hi Robert – I've deleted my post (can you edit out my quote in your post?). I didn't intend at all to come across brash but thought I was being helpful to those who'd be interested. I've handed over my .32 to you in your end of town. I'm not interested in any showdown with any member here. Just passing through. Ain't looking for trouble in this wild west. 😉

    Back to the title of this thread, you wrote:

    "What we do know, is that every bit of information, regardless of actual resolution, has been harvested, and finalized in pure 4k"

    I was a bit confused with this because at the beginning of your review who said that it could have been inferred that the original negative was severely damaged. But this disc has come from a scan of the negative which has been in good order? Or from a different print?

    I have absolutely no problems with your posts.

    Actually a pleasant surprise to have you here. Stick around.

    Our community "request" pertains to all, inclusive of Schofields, Remingtons, Smiths, as well as them little deringer knock-offs.

    Should you desire to carry the real thing, with a double rr, not a problem, as we're in the rainy season, and you're powder will be wet.

  51. Michael Osadciw

    Hi Robert – I've deleted my post (can you edit out my quote in your post?). I didn't intend at all to come across brash but thought I was being helpful to those who'd be interested. I've handed over my .32 to you in your end of town. I'm not interested in any showdown with any member here. Just passing through. Ain't looking for trouble in this wild west. 😉

    Back to the title of this thread, you wrote:

    "What we do know, is that every bit of information, regardless of actual resolution, has been harvested, and finalized in pure 4k"

    I was a bit confused with this because at the beginning of your review who said that it could have been inferred that the original negative was severely damaged. But this disc has come from a scan of the negative which has been in good order? Or from a different print?

    Sorry for the confusion. You've been away so long, you've forgotten my odd humor. No damage. WB publicized the fact that for 2011, the film was "restored." They attach different meanings to the word than I. At least they did in that case.

    I find it odd when a film is noted as restored, without a mention of cause.

    A bit like The Little Mermaid, which was "restored" for its special laser disc release.

    I have no problem with a bit of marketing sizzle, the misuse of that particular term makes me cranky.

    Ever notice how olives are sold by size, and there's never a small? They seem to run from large to Colossal.

    Just sayin'

  52. stevenHa

    Robert, can you discuss what your smoothing/blur settings are when reviewing both old and new films (do you have different settings for each) ? It seems to me when I watch films on my OLED B6 that they seem to have some sped up smoothing motion and look more like video than film (I don't see too many new movies in the theater so I don't know if that is what they should like, but what about older movies) ?
    Thanks.

    I turn off all the smoothing and clear motion settings on my OLED. Does anyone actually prefer watching a film with those settings enabled??

  53. I use DJ 1, DB 0. DB adds some sort of hitching, its not very good by itself. Also, if they are used together, there is more chance of artifacting. DJ 1 is just right for me, too much judder for my taste with TM off and only RC on. Really my only knock on OLED, motion needs to get better, but all the reviews hammer LG and they don't seem to concerned. This is one area where the Sony OLED (no surprise) is better, Sony's MotionFlow has been one of the best in the business, and the usually have a "Standard" mode that makes it look real nice, not soapy, and you get 650 lines of motion rez.

  54. Tino

    I turn off all the smoothing and clear motion settings on my OLED. Does anyone actually prefer watching a film with those settings enabled??

    Yes. His name starts with a "J" and rhymes with Joe SixPack. It's actually really disappointing for me now, with HD/UHD being so affordable, how many times I go to friends and new-acquaintances places and see a TV with Soap Opera Effect on full-blast. It's way more prevalent than not (like I'd say the vast majority I've seen in the last 12-24 months have had SOE). It's on by default and the vast majority of consumers who aren't HT fans like us just leave it on out of ignorance or apathy.

  55. Surely the fact that this legacy title is selling well, should encourage further catalogue 4K UHD releases from the major studios? And I wonder what boutique publishers, such as Criterion and Arrow are planning? They do quite a few 4K restorations for blu-ray releases. And don't call me Shirley!

  56. titch

    Surely the fact that this legacy title is selling well, should encourage further catalogue 4K UHD releases from the major studios? And I wonder what boutique publishers, such as Criterion and Arrow are planning? They do quite a few 4K restorations for blu-ray releases. And don't call me Shirley!

    4k image harvests, the necessity toward restoration, aside, are not performed for Blu-ray.

    The purpose is asset protection.

    All else is secondary.

    And without asset protection as the ultimate goal, original negatives, and prime elements should not be made available.

  57. Watched last night. It was a mild use of HDR and the audio (like gunshots) felt a little dated, but overall I loved it. Love the movie, and that is the best it has looked. I have seen a lot of posts elsewhere about black crush, but I thought it was fine. Also think too many people watch without properly set displays, and this exposes problems in HDR more than it does SDR.

    The day shots on the prairie were gorgeous and sharp.

  58. I watched the blu-ray last night, on my projector set-up. I have an Oppo 203 but I don't have a 4K projector. I didn't find any problem with edge-enhancement in motion (I could see it if I freeze-framed the windmill scene). I wonder if anyone else watching the blu-ray found the colour-grading on Clint Eastwood's face in certain scenes to be excessively reddish? This was only present on the 2017 blu-ray remaster. The 2011 blu-ray and 4K picture had consistent, natural skin-tones. I took screen-shots with my iPhone, so I emphasize that these in no way should be taken as reference – I am just interested if anyone else has noticed this anomaly?
    View attachment 38386 View attachment 38387 View attachment 38388

  59. I looked at that link and couldn't figure out what comparisons were being made. Perhaps because I was using my iPhone and I couldn't see the small print.

    So what was the result?

  60. I am all for perfection. With that said, I am certain that the 4K will still surpass the 35mm theatrical edition that I saw in its original run at a Seattle movie theater. I recently recollected my memory of it all. I recall the print or projection to be slightly soft or not sharp. So, in comparison, I am now certain that we are ahead of the game in the safety of our own homes. Masterpiece that Unforgiven may be, its photographic canvas was never on a Freddie Young type of realm. It is Eastwood; pragmatic, functional, rugged and always brought in under budget and with immediacy. Both styles served us well.

  61. Yellbean

    I just looked at those screen caps. Is it me or does the 4K look like it is lower resolution?

    I don't have a 4K projector, so any 4K disc I project on my Sony is down-rezzed. The 4K version of Unforgiven is noticeably darker and the colour-grading is different, compared to the blu-ray. I have 18 4K titles – the only other title I've noticed with completely different colour-grading between the blu-ray and 4K is The Revenant.

  62. PMF

    It is Eastwood; pragmatic, functional, rugged and always brought in under budget and with immediacy. Both styles served us well.

    There is more light and therefore detail on display on High Plains Drifter which was the first western he directed himself.
    I also remember that The Outlaw Josey Wales looked better to me. Obviously this was the intended look so I won't complain but at the same time nobody should expect demo material here because this is not possible with the way it was shot.

    Unforgiven looks soft in the caps that have been posted and strangely mostly free of film grain. The other two that I also own look much more textured to me.

    Due to the high cost of the UHD disc and this not being for rent I have not yet seen it myself, maybe when the cost comes down at some point, possibly in a Warner UHD boxset of sorts?

  63. OliverK

    There is more light and therefore detail on display on High Plains Drifter which was the first western he directed himself.
    I also remember that The Outlaw Josey Wales looked better to me. Obviously this was the intended look so I won't complain but at the same time nobody should expect demo material here because this is not possible with the way it was shot.

    Unforgiven looks soft in the caps that have been posted and strangely mostly free of film grain. The other two that I also own look much more textured to me.

    Due to the high cost of the UHD disc and this not being for rent I have not yet seen it myself, maybe when the cost comes down at some point, possibly in a Warner UHD boxset of sorts?

    Please don't put too much emphasis on my screenshots for grain etc – I stated that these were taken with an iPhone directly at the screen, so the image will differ from files lifted directly from the disc. However – the overly saturated red colour in Clint Eastwood's face in some scenes on the remastered blu-ray is quite striking – I hadn't read about this issue previously. That said, there was little visible grain on the transfer. I have no idea what film stock was used – there are far more knowledgeable experts on this site. Warner Bros has a good track record with their high-definition masters right from the start. They have very rarely been accused of de-graining their picture, unlike, say Universal. I recently tried to watch Brokeback Mountain (a Universal title) again and the picture quality was appalling – rampant DNR and edge-enhancement. I stopped after 10 minutes!

  64. titch

    Please don't put too much emphasis on my screenshots for grain etc – I stated that these were taken with an iPhone directly at the screen, so the image will differ from files lifted directly from the disc. However – the overly saturated red colour in Clint Eastwood's face in some scenes on the remastered blu-ray is quite striking – I hadn't read about this issue previously. That said, there was little visible grain on the transfer. I have no idea what film stock was used – there are far more knowledgeable experts on this site. Warner Bros has a good track record with their high-definition masters right from the start. They have very rarely been accused of de-graining their picture, unlike, say Universal. I recently tried to watch Brokeback Mountain (a Universal title) again and the picture quality was appalling – rampant DNR and edge-enhancement. I stopped after 10 minutes!

    Don't worry, I was talking about caps like these:

    http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=492&y=280&d1=10409&d2=10410&s1=101408&s2=101421&l=0&i=3&go=1

    http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=432&y=166&d1=10409&d2=10410&s1=101405&s2=101418&l=0&i=0&go=1

    Agreed on the red faces, somethign seems to have gone wrong there.
    I would never even start to compare Unforgiven with some of the Universal abominations, Brokeback Mountain is indeed a not very good looking disc.

    Some older releases of large format productions have been degrained or filtered by the way ad they look quite soft compared to what they could look like. Mutiny on the Bounty and Battle of the Bulge are the worst if I remember correctly and BoB also has rather bad looking EE.

    Not that too many people would care about that and I do not expect Warner to do anything about it in the near future.

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