Studios and Manufacturers announce HDR10+ Technology

Support continues to grow for HDR10+ 3 Stars

20th Century Fox, Panasonic and Samsung Gain Momentum for
Best Possible TV-Viewing Experience with HDR10+ Technology

LAS VEGAS, NV – January 5, 2018 – 20th Century Fox, Panasonic Corporation and Samsung Electronics today announced updates to the associated certification and logo program for the open, royalty-free dynamic metadata platform for High Dynamic Range (HDR), called HDR10+ which they initially announced last year at IFA.

The HDR10+ platform will soon be made available to content companies, ultra-high definition TVs, Blu-ray disc players/recorders and set-top box manufacturers, as well as SoC vendors, royalty-free with only a nominal administrative fee. Companies can view the new logo, learn about the license program including final specifications, adopter agreements and sign up to receive a notification when technical specifications for HDR10+ become available at http://www.hdr10plus.org. In addition, Ultra HD Blu-ray metadata generation tools have been developed with third parties and will soon be available for content creators enabling Ultra HD Blu-ray players to enter the market. Details on the content transfer and interface format for the content creation pipeline will also be released shortly.

HDR10+ will offer a genuinely premium HDR experience for viewers through a device certification program ensuring an accurate representation of the creative intent expressed in the content. Also, its workflow improvements for creators will encourage increased production of premium HDR content.

The HDR10+ license program will provide interested companies with the necessary technical and testing specifications to implement HDR10+ technology in a way that both maintains high picture quality and gives each manufacturer the ability to apply dynamic tone mapping innovatively. The accompanying certification program will ensure that HDR10+ compliant products meet good picture quality and deliver the creative intent of movie directors and cinematographers. A certified product will feature the HDR10+ logo, which signifies the product’s excellent picture quality.

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Key aspects of the license program will include:

· Benefits for device manufacturers (e.g., TV, Ultra HD Blu-ray, OTT STB, etc.), content distribution services providers, SoC manufacturers, content publishers, and content creation tool providers.

· No per unit royalty.

· A nominal annual administration fee for device manufacturers, SoC manufacturers and content distribution service providers.

· Technical specification, test specification, HDR10+ logo/logo guide, patents from the three companies directly related to the technical specification and the test specification.

· Certification for devices will be performed by a third-party, authorized testing center.

Once the HDR10+ license program is open, the three founding companies will incorporate HDR10+ technologies in all future Ultra HD movie releases, selected TVs, Ultra HD Blu-ray player/recorders, and other products.

“It was important for us to create an open system that is flexible and offers a viewing experience much closer to the filmmaker’s creative intent for the film,” said Danny Kaye, Executive Vice President of 20th Century Fox, and Managing Director of the Fox Innovation Lab. “Together with Samsung and Panasonic, we aim to standardize the licensing process making it easy for partners, including content creators, television and device manufacturers, to incorporate this technology and improve the viewing experience for all audiences.”

Support continues to grow for HDR10+ and companies are looking forward to applying the 3C specifications and certification program. More than 25 companies spanning many different industries have expressed strong interest in supporting the HDR10+ platform, further reinforcing its path to success.

Amazon Prime Video, the first streaming service provider to deliver HDR10+, has made the entire Prime Video HDR library available in HDR10+ globally. The Prime Video HDR10+ catalog includes hundreds of hours of content such as Prime Originals The Grand Tour, Golden Globe®-nominated The Marvelous Mrs. MaiselJean-Claude Van JohnsonThe Tick and The Man in the High Castle plus hundreds of licensed titles.

Warner Bros. Home Entertainment will support HDR10+ to enable a dynamic metadata solution for Warner Bros. content to Samsung, Panasonic and other HDR10+ capable 4K HDR TVs. “Warner Bros. has always strived to provide the best next gen home entertainment experience to consumers,” said Jim Wuthrich, President of the Americas and Global Strategy, Warner Bros. Home Entertainment. “With HDR10+ dynamic metadata, WB can continue to more accurately bring the filmmakers’ vision of our 2018 releases and our vast catalog of over seventy-five 4K HDR titles to the home across a broad range of HDR10+ capable TV’s.”

The new HDR10+ technology optimizes picture quality for next generation displays by using dynamic tone mapping to reflect frame to frame or scene to scene variations in brightness, color saturation, and contrast, which makes for an enhanced viewing experience. HDR10+ technology optimizes the performance of many 4K ultra-high definition TVs, enabling playback on a wide range of next generation TVs bringing user experience much closer to the original creative intent for Hollywood films.

“By bringing together know-how and technology from the three founding companies, HDR10+ has the potential to deliver considerable picture quality benefits to both viewers and creators alike,” said Toshiharu Tsutsui, Director of Panasonic’s TV Business Division. “Accordingly, Panasonic anticipates wide support for HDR10+.”

“Samsung is committed to technological innovation across our TVs and HDR10+ represents an evolution in display quality for the best possible viewing experience,” said Jongsuk Chu, Senior Vice President of Visual Display Business at Samsung Electronics. “We have also designed the HDR10+ platform to encourage future development in order to deliver further enhanced technology in the years to come.”

20th Century Fox, Panasonic and Samsung will show technical demonstrations of HDR10+ technology at CES 2018. Accredited journalists or parties interested in the licensee program may email [email protected] for more information. Accredited journalists can see Panasonic’s HDR10+ technical demo at its suite at the MGM Grand Conference Centre. A HDR10+ technology demo will be held at Samsung’s First Look event at Enclave Las Vegas on 7th January.

To learn more about the HDR10+ license program, please contact the HDR10+ license administration office at [email protected].

Published by

Ronald Epstein

administrator

58 Comments

  1. Great. Another competing HDR technology that requires new hardware, when I already have thousands of dollars invested in my current one year old 4K setup. No thanks electronics industry, and not anytime soon either.

  2. Dick

    Guess UHD isn't new enough for these greedy corporations. Jesus, is anyone not satisfied with 4K? I will not invest a dime in this technology.

    I am happy I am sitting out in this format. It's always a war between manufacturers and guess who always ends up losing….

  3. I don't understand the consternation expressed in this thread. Technology advances have always been present and will continue to be developed in the future. Any technology once introduced to the public is bound to be obsolete, it's only a matter of time. If you have equipment that can't support this technology announcement then be happy with what it can support which is what you bought it for in the first place.

    Edit: One more comment about consternation, after stating about not understanding it in this thread, I have to revise my position and say that I do empathize with people having those thoughts, but in this world of continue technological advances, I expect the industry to keep producing them, but it doesn't mean I have to support them by changing out my home theater equipment every two years.

  4. Robert Crawford

    I don't understand the consternation expressed in this thread.

    It's the early adopter woe of chasing the latest thing. If you just spent gobs of money on a new TV and some new thing comes out that makes it obsolete, you are likely not a happy camper.

    That said, it sounded to me like it was a standardized testing/licensing update, like THX. That would be a good thing.

  5. It seems a strange development with yer bog standard 4K UHD struggling to get a foothold in the market. It does remind me of the battle between HD-DVD & Blu-ray, I & many others just waited until a winner emerged.

  6. Mike2001

    It's the early adopter woe of chasing the latest thing. If you just spent gobs of money on a new TV and some new thing comes out that makes it obsolete, you are likely not a happy camper.

    That said, it sounded to me like it was a standardized testing/licensing update, like THX. That would be a good thing.

    I'd spent a boatload of monies in 2017 upgrading my home theater and I'm a very happy camper despite this HDR announcement.

  7. Billy Batson

    It seems a strange development with yer bog standard 4K UHD struggling to get a foothold in the market. It does remind me of the battle between HD-DVD & Blu-ray, I & many others just waited until a winner emerged.

    It's not strange at all to me as HDR10+ is a normal progression in order to match Dolby Vision.

  8. Robert Crawford

    I don't understand the consternation expressed in this thread.

    I do.

    The rollout of 4k UHD, and along with it, HDR, was the worst I’ve encountered.

    The absolute lack of communication, cooperation, and technical abilities of programmers, hardware and software creators, and then post-production entities, has been enough to turn off even the most die-hard of adopters.

    When a consumer is unable to get a straight answer from tech support, and even the best support reps, blame the player, or projector, or panel, produced by the other entity, because their gear won’t function as advertised…

    And if that fails, tell the consumer that their cables are the problem, and one can only trust and use Monster products…

    As much as I love technology, unless HDR+ can be actuated by an easy, workable, well thought out firmware or software upgrade…

    I’m not in.

    Where in the past, one could “invest” in a new TV or monitor, and run it for five, ten years, or longer, with the constant “upgrades” of connections for newer, faster, more data compliant abilities, the life a a piece of hardware is now six months to a couple of years.

    Bottom line, if my SONY OLED will be able to run HDR+, I’ll be a happy camper, and moderately pleased to at least experiment, before I find that something won’t sync properly, which is the norm.

    Alternatively, I see it as an industry money grab.

    Let’s keep in mind that while theatrical venues may want or need to offer the latest and greatest to their audiences, and have the ability to upgrade their projectors (most don’t), and move older gear to a lesser theater, asking a home theater fans to spend ten, or twenty thousand dollars on a new projector, or five or more on a new flat panel, in order to be able to upgrade to a newer HDR format…

    And let’s keep in mind that home theater projectors are still in incapable of properly decoding and putting HDR 10 on a screen.

    And that’s why I understand consumer consternation.

    RAH

  9. Robert Harris

    I do.

    The rollout of 4k UHD, and along with it, HDR, was the worst I’ve encountered.

    The absolute lack of communication, cooperation, and technical abilities of programmers, hardware and software creators, and then post-production entities, has been enough to turn off even the most die-hard of adopters.

    When a consumer is unable to get a straight answer from tech support, and even the best support reps, blame the player, or projector, or panel, produced by the other entity, because their gear won’t function as advertised…

    And if that fails, tell the consumer that their cables are the problem, and one can only trust and use Monster products…

    As much as I love technology, unless HDR+ can be actuated by an easy, workable, well thought out firmware or software upgrade…

    I’m not in.

    Where in the past, one could “invest” in a new TV or monitor, and run it for five, ten years, or longer, with the constant “upgrades” of connections for newer, faster, more data compliant abilities, the life a a piece of hardware is now six months to a couple of years.

    Bottom line, if my SONY OLED will be able to run HDR+, I’ll be a happy camper, and moderately pleased to at least experiment, before I find that something won’t sync properly, which is the norm.

    Alternatively, I see it as an industry money grab.

    Let’s keep in mind that while theatrical venues may want or need to offer the latest and greatest to their audiences, and have the ability to upgrade their projectors (most don’t), and move older gear to a lesser theater, asking a home theater fans to spend ten, or twenty thousand dollars on a new projector, or five or more on a new flat panel, in order to be able to upgrade to a newer HDR format…

    And let’s keep in mind that home theater projectors are still in incapable of properly decoding and putting HDR 10 on a screen.

    And that’s why I understand consumer consternation.

    RAH

    However, to somewhat paraphrase Hyman Roth, home theater is the hobby we chosen and it's been this way ever since it began in earnest back in 1980's. I do agree with you about the roll out, it's been handled very badly by the industry including the content providers.

  10. RAH hit the nail on the head.

    From my position, I would love to get into 4k. However, there are so many things standing in the way.

    If I am going to spend thousands on 4k projection, I want it to be future-proof.

    Up until a few days ago, that meant waiting for Dolby Vision support.

    Now, it means not only waiting for HDR10+ but trying to figure out which studios are going to support which of the two competing formats.

    Like every other format (outside of DVD), this is another cluster-f launch.

    As usual, everyone wants a piece of the pie.

    I am so happy for those who were able to get displays on the cheap. I don't want a display. Once you go projection, you never go back to displays.

    But even those of you who have displays, I would suspect they are already outdated because they won't support the new upcoming formats.

    I have been through this upgrade thing too many times. I no longer jump into new formats without making certain they are well-established first.

  11. Ronald Epstein

    RAH hit the nail on the head.

    From my position, I would love to get into 4k. However, there are so many things standing in the way.

    If I am going to spend thousands on 4k projection, I want it to be future-proof.

    Up until a few days ago, that meant waiting for Dolby Vision support.

    Now, it means not only waiting for HDR10+ but trying to figure out which studios are going to support which of the two competing formats.

    Like every other format (outside of DVD), this is another cluster-f launch.

    As usual, everyone wants a piece of the pie.

    I am so happy for those who were able to get displays on the cheap. I don't want a display. Once you go projection, you never go back to displays.

    But even those of you who have displays, I would suspect they are already outdated because they won't support the new upcoming formats.

    I have been through this upgrade thing too many times. I no longer jump into new formats without making certain they are well-established first.

    There is no such thing as future-proof when it comes to home theater equipment.

  12. Robert Crawford

    There is no such thing as future-proof when it comes to home theater equipment.

    Perhaps.

    However, this isn't just about future-proofing. This is trying to figure out where the format is going.

    Once Blu-ray won the format war it was pretty much solidified. 4k still is not and it has been around for about two years now.

  13. Ronald Epstein

    Perhaps.

    However, this isn't just about future-proofing. This is trying to figure out where the format is going.

    Once Blu-ray won the format war it was pretty much solidified. 4k still is not and it has been around for about two years now.

    So do we expect the industry to stop releasing advances as they developed them or to not develop them at all?

  14. Robert Crawford

    So do we expect the industry to stop releasing advances as they developed them or to not develop them at all?

    It's not about advancement.

    It's about everyone wanting a piece of the pie. Instead of everyone coming together and adopting a single idea, they scatter and create their own competing ideas that basically do the same thing.

    As a result, the consumer just sits on the sideline wondering which one is going to be compatible with a display or projector investment that might set them back thousands of dollars.

    I'm getting ready to retire. I'm too old to be playing these games. The industry can do all they want. In the end, if enough consumers get pissed off and avoid buying into the format, it will become a niche. I am not saying that will happen to 4k, but at this time, I am certainly not going to help it along.

  15. Ronald Epstein

    It's not about advancement.

    It's about everyone wanting a piece of the pie. Instead of everyone coming together and adopting a single idea, they scatter and create their own competing ideas that basically do the same thing.

    As a result, the consumer just sits on the sideline wondering which one is going to be compatible with a display or projector investment that might set them back thousands of dollars.

    I'm getting ready to retire. I'm too old to be playing these games. The industry can do all they want. In the end, if enough consumers get pissed off and avoid buying into the format, it will become a niche. I am not saying that will happen to 4k, but at this time, I am certainly not going to help it along.

    As somebody that spent almost 40 years in manufacturing management that's not going to happen as competitors are going to compete and continue to out advance the other guy.

    As to your other point about retirement, I'm already to that point. I won't be upgrading my equipment again until the equipment fails me. At least, when it comes to the equipment change out I did in 2017, in my main HT set up.

  16. Robert Crawford

    So do we expect the industry to stop releasing advances as they developed them or to not develop them at all?

    No.

    Tech advances are positive.

    However, there must be a rational upgrade route.

    Even if it’s not firmware/software, once a consumer has invested in a new 4k device, there must be compatibility, and the ability to, at worst case, change out a board or other upgradable part.

    I have no problem spending to upgrade, but not to constantly replace high-end hardware.

    The question that remains on the table relevant to HDR+, is whether no nor all current players, processors and viewing devices can run it, with nothing more than a download and upgrade.

  17. Robert Harris

    I have no problem spending to upgrade, but not to constantly replace high-end hardware.

    The question that remains on the table relevant to HDR+, is whether no nor all current players, processors and viewing devices can run it, with nothing more than a download and upgrade.

    I'm with you there as I stated in my previous post to this one. Furthermore, that is a question that needs to be answer for all concern.

  18. Robert Harris

    However, there must be a rational upgrade route.

    Even if it’s not firmware/software, once a consumer has invested in a new 4k device, there must be compatibility, and the ability to, at worst case, change out a board or other upgradable part.

    I have no problem spending to upgrade, but not to constantly replace high-end hardware.

    The question that remains on the table relevant to HDR+, is whether no nor all current players, processors and viewing devices can run it, with nothing more than a download and upgrade.

    I'm in agreement with those points too.

  19. The only difference here, if my memory serves me correct is that once Blu-ray won the format war (in 2008), we had a good 8-9 years of steady compatibility. The only bump in the road was 3D. Those who wanted 3D had to do further upgrades.

    However, there was a huge push for 4k as of two years ago. Hardware was rushed out. Sloppy 2k masters were put on 4k discs. The only reason the format had a rather promising adoption was due to the fact that displays were cheap and 4k was standard on them.

    However, now two years into the format, it's still not solidified. That wasn't the case with Blu-ray. Now it's a question on which of the two extended color technologies will ultimately get the most support from the studios. Pick the wrong one and you wasted a lot of money on your investment.

    If I am going to spend $8k on a projector — and that's probably dealer cost — I am going to make certain that I have something that is going to last me a few years without worrying that I picked the wrong format, either HDR10+ or Dolby Vision.

    Really, I have spent too much time debating this issue. There is no right answer globally — only the right answer for those willing to or not willing to play the upgrade game. I would rather retire and invest $8k in a safe stock.

  20. Ronald Epstein

    The only difference here, if my memory serves me correct is that once Blu-ray won the format war (in 2008), we had a good 8-9 years of steady compatibility. The only bump in the road was 3D. Those who wanted 3D had to do further upgrades.

    However, there was a huge push for 4k as of two years ago. Hardware was rushed out. Sloppy 2k masters were put on 4k discs. The only reason the format had a rather promising adoption was due to the fact that displays were cheap and 4k was standard on them.

    However, now two years into the format, it's still not solidified. That wasn't the case with Blu-ray. Now it's a question on which of the two extended color technologies will ultimately get the most support from the studios. Pick the wrong one and you wasted a lot of money on your investment.

    If I am going to spend $8k on a projector — and that's probably dealer cost — I am going to make certain that I have something that is going to last me a few years without worrying that I picked the wrong format, either HDR10+ or Dolby Vision.

    Really, I have spent too much time debating this issue. There is no right answer globally — only the right answer for those willing to or not willing to play the upgrade game. I would rather retire and invest $8k in a safe stock.

    Ron,

    I will say that I think the industry has done a disservice to their consumer base by not releasing 4K initially with both HDR and Dolby Vision formats. However, I do have difficulty telling them to stop perfecting those formats with more advanced versions. With that said and back to RAH's point, there should have been a process developed to upgrade equipment already out in the market place.

    Good discussion and I'm sure others will join it with their point of views.:thumbsup:

  21. Ronald Epstein

    The only difference here, if my memory serves me correct is that once Blu-ray won the format war (in 2008), we had a good 8-9 years of steady compatibility. The only bump in the road was 3D. Those who wanted 3D had to do further upgrades.

    However, there was a huge push for 4k as of two years ago. Hardware was rushed out. Sloppy 2k masters were put on 4k discs. The only reason the format had a rather promising adoption was due to the fact that displays were cheap and 4k was standard on them.

    However, now two years into the format, it's still not solidified. That wasn't the case with Blu-ray. Now it's a question on which of the two extended color technologies will ultimately get the most support from the studios. Pick the wrong one and you wasted a lot of money on your investment.

    If I am going to spend $8k on a projector — and that's probably dealer cost — I am going to make certain that I have something that is going to last me a few years without worrying that I picked the wrong format, either HDR10+ or Dolby Vision.

    Really, I have spent too much time debating this issue. There is no right answer globally — only the right answer for those willing to or not willing to play the upgrade game. I would rather retire and invest $8k in a safe stock.

    During the BD era, the same thing happened with sloppy early transfers. I think we have all purchased multiple versions of the same film on BD, just as we did on DVD.

    While I understand why people are upset, as someone who invested in 4K technology in 2017 this announcement doesn't bother me. Even if HDR10+ takes off as a format, it will not affect the image quality I am getting today with my equipment — and I am happy with that quality. If anything, the appearance of HDR10+ may force Dolby to reduce their licensing fees for Dolby Vision, which may result in a greater adoption of that format.

    I do agree that the industry has not handled the 4K rollout well. The nuances of different color spaces, HDMI versions, HDMI cable certifications, HDR formats, etc are confusing for us tech geeks who call this a hobby. How can the average consumer be expected to figure this all out when we have problems doing so?

  22. Robert Harris

    The question that remains on the table relevant to HDR+, is whether no nor all current players, processors and viewing devices can run it, with nothing more than a download and upgrade.

    Knowing the consumer electronics industry, I think it's a pretty easy bet that HDR10+ will in most cases require new hardware. In other words, more money spent by the consumer if they want to take advantage of this technology.

  23. dpippel

    Knowing the consumer electronics industry, I think it's a pretty easy bet that HDR10+ will in most cases require new hardware. In other words, more money spent by the consumer if they want to take advantage of this technology.

    Doug,

    No doubt. None of this will be a simple software upgrade.

    So, in two short years, 4k is already somewhat outdated by these new technologies.

    However, I understand there are those who are very happy with what they already have.

  24. Scott Merryfield

    I do agree that the industry has not handled the 4K rollout well.

    I think most home video fans would agree that historically, no rollout has been handled well.

    As someone whose has gone from 16mm to Kloss Novabeam to the latest and greatest digital projectors regularly, my philosophy now is just to upgrade when I have the resources available, and at that time will see what the state of the art in my price range is. The day when video displays become a commodity (as PCs and DVD players eventually did) is a long way off.

  25. RichMurphy

    I think most home video fans would agree that historically, no rollout has been handled well.

    As someone whose has gone from 16mm to Kloss Novabeam to the latest and greatest digital projectors regularly, my philosophy now is just to upgrade when I have the resources available, and at that time will see what the state of the art in my price range is. The day when video displays become a commodity (as PCs and DVD players eventually did) is a long way off.

    Right, even DVD rollout had its issues like non-progressive players and then progressive players. Pan & Scan and non-anamorphic wide screen video presentations.

  26. Rich,

    I think with one exception, the DVD rollout went perfectly.

    There were no competing formats. The difference over laserdisc and VHS was night and day. It wasn't difficult to sell customers on the format once they saw it in person.

    Warren Lieberfarb was the big winner. He held the license for the format. Everyone that used it had to pay him. It was a hard lesson that all the other studios and manufacturers took note of and moving forward, everyone tried to get their own piece of the pie in any new format that came along.

    The one exception to the perfect DVD rollout? Transfers. Outside of new releases, a lot of classic fare was being thrown on the discs without any kind of digital cleanup.

    EDIT: Responding to Robert's comment about progressive and non-progressive players. I don't quite remember that. My memory is that all the initial players, prior to upscaling players coming at the dawn of Blu-ray, were all the same. I could be wrong, but I am working on a memory going about 20 years back.

  27. The despicable me uhd discs have a Dolby vision encode that defaults to hdr if your player or display is not dv capable.

    As long as hdr10+ discs do the same ill be fine. Sure hdr10+ probably will look better, but the difference between blu ray and UHD is worth upgrading to. The difference between hdr10 and hdr10+ is only worth upgrading to if your in the market for a new display or player, its not night and day.

    Ill enjoy my current setup, and in a few years when I either upgrade again or add a second tv ill take advantage of whatever is available.

    Appollo 13 is one of my favorite films. And the 4k scan of the original camera negative is simply breathtaking. In plain old hdr10.

  28. Ronald Epstein

    EDIT: Responding to Robert's comment about progressive and non-progressive players. I don't quite remember that. My memory is that all the initial players, prior to upscaling players coming at the dawn of Blu-ray, were all the same. I could be wrong, but I am working on a memory going about 20 years back.

    I remembered it because it cost me a bunch of money. I was one of the first 50,000 people to buy a DVD player. That very expensive Sony player that first came out on the DVD market in 1997, was non-progressive. My first progressive player was a Toshiba that came out 6-9 months or so later after my Sony purchase in the summer of 1997. Both players cost around $1000 each.

  29. We no longer have formats that are done when they first come out like in the old days. Like in the old days with turntables, cassette decks, laser disc players and vcr's where there where no changes in the formats themselves and your records and tapes would work no matter what. Even with movies on the new formats there seems to eventually be a new software upgrade so a new feature on the disc will work and the movie will play. We did not have this problem many years ago! Sure a manufacture might have some different marketing tweek to get you to buy there product but it is not like it is now. And companies where more into increasing quality and performance to separate themselves from there competitors. But we have HDR which is nice but TV's came out without HDR then they added Dolby Vision and now for HDR to compete with Dolby Vision HDR or HDR-10 has to come out with HDR-10+ and one has to wonder will Dolby Vision come out with a premium Dolby Vision next?

    I have been involved in the hobby a long time and I understand that new gear and technology comes out in cycles all the time. I have gone from stereo sources like turntables and cassette decks which where stereo only audio formats to including audio and video. From laserdisc to VHS video tape to dvd video to hd-dvd and blu-ray and now 4K blu-ray. But I can understand why lately people are getting turned off and why they might put off jumping on board with a new technology because it seems like it is never actually finished anymore. Granted I chose to be a first adopter and I do not have Dolby Vision and it will be awhile before I can afford to upgrade my display. But I am going to not focus on what features I do not have and choose to enjoy the features and capability I do have. But at the same time I see what some are getting tired and choose to not join in on new technologies like 4K. Moving forward how ever the equipment manufactures are going to have a very hard time selling someone on whey they need yet another new format TV or video format for movies or that next change in audio format with possible more speakers. In my honest opinion we have hit that spot where we have both video and audio quality that is more than good enough for the home environment. And it is going to be very difficult to see the consumer on why they need to replace what they have for that next new shinny item to go in there home. Other than a display that literally looks like reality and so real you couldn't tell the difference between a display and looking out your window. What can they sell us that we can justify spending more money on and do we need to to look that real? And I know many people out there do not have the available finances they use to have so it is so much more difficult to run out and replace things every time they change formats and features.

    So personally this is a good reason to put off buying a new 4K display or 4K projector till things settle and prices come down on 4K projectors. Right now my focus is on upgrading to yet another new AVR! But unlike any other time in the past my current upgrades will be my last! I do not need or want anything better than what is out right now. Other than maybe including Dolby Vision and the HDR-10+ there is nothing else they can sell me moving forward. Lossless audio and Dobly Atmos with DTS-X is more than I need or want. Part of my plan is to upgrade component quality and for example upgrading to better quality rear channel speakers and match the center channel that I have now. Other than a few upgrades here and there depending on the availability of funds and the realization that my age is catching up with me the upgrade train is coming slowly to an end. And I will be content to enjoy what I have! The only thing I will do is add movies as long as there is physical media and once that goes away I am done buying movies as well. So again I can see the points a number of people have brought up in this thread! I can see major change coming to the industry in the future and wouldn't be surprise if competition gets so tough between manufactures that we see many of the brands that are less known to the average consumer just go out of business and we are left with a much smaller choice of companies. Especially with technology moving forward to the point where people can not tell the difference and see no reason to upgrade what they have. There are so many more companies out there the average consumer never hears about and lets face it many consumers just want something cheap just so they can have it and because finances doesn't allow them to buy more expensive things! And sometimes you just have to get what you can afford.

    I forsee HDR-10+ working something similar to how packet extensions work with Dolby Atmos and DTS-X. Where if you do not have Atmos or X the avr just sees the Dolby True HD or Master Audio part of the audio stream. So the way I see it HDR-10+ should basically be an extension to HDR-10 and if your gear can deal with it then you will get the full HDR-10+ experience if not then you will only see HDR-10. I don't think people should worry to much about it. But again I still see why people are having issues moving forward buying new gear when many feel this all should have been worked out in the beginning. Those days are long gone unfortunately! Players have updates as do avr's occasionally have updates as do our tv's and smart phones seem to always have updates available. Hardware today always has an update for a number of reasons.

  30. Ronald Epstein

    Rich,

    I think with one exception, the DVD rollout went perfectly.

    There were no competing formats.

    The one exception to the perfect DVD rollout? Transfers. Outside of new releases, a lot of classic fare was being thrown on the discs without any kind of digital cleanup.

    One more exception: Let's not forget Circuit City's "brilliant" DIVX – the DVD player system that required a dedicated phone line and limited the time period during which you could play the disc. For a mercifully brief moment, some films were only available in that format.

  31. In response to Dave Moritz's comments. I concur, but will go a step further.

    The marketing side of home video has been working extremely hard to make it appear that HDR is an inherent part of the 4k environment, and it simply is not.

    Many HDR releases have been created so dark that they're unviewable in any rational projection environment.

    While a properly created extension of HDR can allow an upgraded image, in most cases, all that one gets is pushed color and higher gamma levels.

    In its creation, there is a major difference between HDR at $1,500, with the push of a button, and HDR inclusive of 40 hours of color room time.

    But it's all HDR, and akin to the creation of a martini, with the veritable waving of vermouth over the glass.

    It all goes back to the wide-eyes looks one might see on a kid's face during a visit to a big box store, while viewing clown fish swimming in coral.

    Is HDR a necessity for an enjoyable home theater experience?

    In my opinion, it is not.

    It allows bragging rights, and for those with less keen eyes, the ability to discern a bigger difference between an image with and without the functionality of HDR.

    A visit to any of Shout Factory's series of large format documentaries, which all seem to have content with and without HDR might be instructive.

    While the increased contrast ratios of HDR lend an appearance of a more highly resolved image, especially from lower than 4k data, it all becomes a matter of perception, and not reality.

    True 4k data, whether created with or without HDR, is the stuff that home theater dreams are made of.

    All the rest is window-dressing, licensing, and grabs at ownership of IP.

    RAH

  32. RichMurphy

    One more exception: Let's not forget Circuit City's "brilliant" DIVX – the DVD player system that required a dedicated phone line and limited the time period during which you could play the disc. For a mercifully brief moment, some films were only available in that format.

    …and don't forget that early DVD players did not support DTS audio output, either. As for DIVX, I remember my next door neighbor knocking on my door and proudly informing me he had purchased a DVD player after watching a film at our home the night before. My smile turned to a frown when he told me he bought the player at Circuit City and it was a DIVX player. Fortunately, it played regular DVDs without any issues.

  33. If HDR10+ was a simple extension or software upgrade to the present HDR10 standard then it would make sense. It doesn't make sense to anyone who has already purchased an HDR equipped UHD TV if a hardware purchase is required to get a marginal upgrade to a technology that, as Robert Harris has pointed out, is an unnecessary requirement for good 4K home theatre quality.

    I would upgrade to HDR10+ if I could do a software upgrade. I'm not about to spend x-thousands of dollars to replace a 1 or 2-year-old set for an incremental upgrade to a standard. I can live with HDR10 if it means spending yet more money for very little return.

  34. Robert Crawford

    Ron,

    I will say that I think the industry has done a disservice to their consumer base by not releasing 4K initially with both HDR and Dolby Vision formats.

    3D would have been nice, too.

  35. Fear not everyone, I have a one-size-fits-all answer, courtesy of Alexander Pope, English poet, essayist and satirist:

    • Be not the first by whom the new are tried,
    • Nor yet the last to lay the old aside.

    From An Essay on Criticism (1709, publ. 1711). Seems to me ol' Alex knew a thing or two about home theatre and technology in general! 😉

  36. Robert Crawford

    It was for some OLEDs like mine, but they took it away for all. Also, my OLED can do HDR and Dolby Vision.

    Yes, I own the last 3D-capable LG set available (65"), which also offers 4K. Hope to hell it lasts me to the end of my life.

  37. I remember a DVD player I owned that had a switch on the back for progressive and non-progressive scan televisions. My first widescreen TV (a 40" Samsung) still wouldn't let me play DVDs with the progressive scan turned on. But my next set was a real HDTV, a rear projection 42" Toshiba set, which did allow it.

  38. Neil S. Bulk

    Right now it's best to wait for the dust to settle. HDMI 2.1 was recently finalized as well as ATSC 3.0. It's silly to buy anything new at the moment.

    I don't agree from my perspective and 3-D requirements, it was the best decision I made in about ten years.

  39. Robert Crawford

    I don't agree from my perspective and 3-D requirements, it was the best decision I made in about ten years.

    Same here. I really had no choice wanting to remain 3D capable for the foreseeable future. My OLED is BY FAR the best television I've ever owned.

  40. Matt Hough

    Same here. I really had no choice wanting to remain 3D capable for the foreseeable future. My OLED is BY FAR the best television I've ever owned.

    TBH, I was in the same boat as I didn't expect to upgrade until this year or next. However, with the industry eliminating 3-D capable panels, I had to upgrade last January.

  41. Robert Harris

    In response to Dave Moritz's comments. I concur, but will go a step further.

    Many HDR releases have been created so dark that they're unviewable in any rational projection environment.

    RAH

    And this – in a nutshell – is why I'm probably not upgrading my HD projector this year. 4K projectors that can be installed in a living room can't yet handle a HDR master, such as Unforgiven or Inception – encoded HEVC @ 4000 nits. Sony's new $15000 4K laser projector, the Sony VPL-VW760ES SXRD, can only produce 2000 ANSI lumens. On a 120 inch screen, that's not enough. Current projectors which are capable of emitting enough light to render a decent image are much too big and unwieldy, let alone prohibitively expensive, to ceiling mount in a normal living room.

  42. Robert Crawford

    I don't agree from my perspective and 3-D requirements, it was the best decision I made in about ten years.

    I never invested in 3D, so the lack of it in the future isn't an issue for me. Thus I'm able to wait for the technology to mature. But this highlights the problem with standards. There are so many of them! 🙂

  43. Neil S. Bulk

    Right now it's best to wait for the dust to settle. HDMI 2.1 was recently finalized as well as ATSC 3.0. It's silly to buy anything new at the moment.

    HDMI 2.1 is mainly for 8K video, and ATSC 3.0 is for over the air broadcasting. Neither of those uses will likely affect the vast majority of consumers for many years, if ever. Many displays, including my Vizio 4K with HDR-10 and Dolby Vision support, do not even have a built in Ota tuner anyway, so ATSC 3.0 is completely irrelevant in those cases. Adding a separate tuner solves the issue for the small minority who still use an Ota antenna.

  44. HDR for me it's not big deal. It's more something to try to compensate the miserable LCD technology handling of shadows and highlights, than a true innovation. And it's a kind of trick, cause it uses LCD screens anyway. I can still see problems with clipped whites on it, despite shadow be less worse than usual.
    LCD it's and always be miserable. LCD technology will never get good.

    -IPS, a scam, stil distort image with few angles.
    – Refresh rate makes thing blur in low side motion.
    -View angle it's a lie, cause just 8 degree create noticeable distortion or turn sreen darker.
    -Light distribution, another fail, cause unles you are meters aways the center looks brighter than the corners.
    -Response time, bad for games.
    -Constrast looks not pleasant, similar to movies in PC, and not full vivid like in prime CRT TVs.

    I don't watch LCD TV (LED backlights TVs as just LCD too). I make huge a effort to tolerate my PC LCD monitor, cause it also have problems, and I just use it cause I have no alternative.
    I laugh about each time a LCD manufacturer tells they have agreat inovation, casue everytime I went to stores all looks bad. HDR, quantum dots, whatever, it still have all the problems I reported.

    I challenge all LCD TV manufacturers to show me a model that please me.

  45. Another issue for me and this might apply to others is we are at a MUCH different media streaming state vs where we were in 2008 when BD won that. Now, we are overrun with Soundbars and TV's with Netflix and Amazon prime & Apple TV.

    The world has changed and only a very small percentage of people I know buy discs. Which is why this 'progression' is counterproductive. This is only to combat Dolby Vision, which is superior to HDR. This will be confusing. Dolby Vision and 'plain HDR" is confusing enough.

    Knowing the 4K physical media market was shrinking and most seem quite content with Netflix and streaming, it was VITAL that this 4K UHD rollout be effective AND easy for the consumer to understand.

    All of us here on the HTF are here due to our love of film and the technology behind it and understand that one can really never stay ahead. But dang, can we not get the specs straightened out and understood BEFOREhand.

    Rant over.

  46. Neil S. Bulk

    I never invested in 3D, so the lack of it in the future isn't an issue for me. Thus I'm able to wait for the technology to mature. But this highlights the problem with standards. There are so many of them! 🙂

    Obligatory XKCD. I work in IEEE 802.11 (Wi-Fi) tech. There's always a new version to chase. At least with IEEE 802.11, there's a tangible benefit to the upgrade, not just a lateral technology that merely has a different licensing regime.

  47. Yeah, I haven't bought a new router yet either. Sticking with N for now. 🙂

    I plan on getting a new receiver when they can support HDMI 2.1 and whatever HDR standards are out. Then I'll worry about source components and wi-fi.

    Neil

  48. Originally there was HDR10. It was what most studios/manufactures used as it was open source (ie inexpensive). Dolby Vision was superior, but expensive as you had to pay licensing fees. I see this as the people who wanted to use the cheaper option improving it. I would be surprised if a piece of hardware (display or player) that can support Dolby Vision, couldn't be upgraded via FW to support HDR10+, and even if it can't, I think the HDR10 encoded movies I have watched as a whole are a big enough upgrade to the non-HDR Blu-rays that I am not regretting making the investment. I saw a prototype 8K display almost 4 years ago and that didn't stop me from upgrading to 4K last year once Dolby Vision was available.

  49. Originally there was HDR10. It was what most studios/manufactures used as it was open source (ie inexpensive). Dolby Vision was superior, but expensive as you had to pay licensing fees. I see this as the people who wanted to use the cheaper option improving it. I would be surprised if a piece of hardware (display or player) that can support Dolby Vision, couldn't be upgraded via FW to support HDR10+, and even if it can't, I think the HDR10 encoded movies I have watched as a whole are a big enough upgrade to the non-HDR Blu-rays that I am not regretting making the investment. I saw a prototype 8K display almost 4 years ago and that didn't stop me from upgrading to 4K last year once Dolby Vision was available.

  50. Problem is HDR10+ is a metadata enhanced version of HDR10 – it's an upgrade from that, but not superior to Dolby Vision. It's "DV lite" as it were.

    There's no "golden reference" like with Dolby Vision, which is important to keep the same levels as what was in the authoring suite.
    It doesn't have 12-bit color like Dolby Vision does, which seems to be at the very least future proofed.

    It also only seems to benefit Samsung, which in the US market seems to be the lone hold out against licensing Dolby Vision. I'm not sure Sony or Vizio has incentive to license HDR10+

  51. Problem is HDR10+ is a metadata enhanced version of HDR10 – it's an upgrade from that, but not superior to Dolby Vision. It's "DV lite" as it were.

    There's no "golden reference" like with Dolby Vision, which is important to keep the same levels as what was in the authoring suite.
    It doesn't have 12-bit color like Dolby Vision does, which seems to be at the very least future proofed.

    It also only seems to benefit Samsung, which in the US market seems to be the lone hold out against licensing Dolby Vision. I'm not sure Sony or Vizio has incentive to license HDR10+

  52. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the UHD Alliance still hasn't approved HDR10+ for the UHD standard yet.

    The only HDR standards currently adopted by UHD is HDR10, Dolby Vision, and another esoteric standard called Phillips HDR which nobody even uses.

  53. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the UHD Alliance still hasn't approved HDR10+ for the UHD standard yet.

    The only HDR standards currently adopted by UHD is HDR10, Dolby Vision, and another esoteric standard called Phillips HDR which nobody even uses.

  54. revgen

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the UHD Alliance still hasn't approved HDR10+ for the UHD standard yet.

    The only HDR standards currently adopted by UHD is HDR10, Dolby Vision, and another esoteric standard called Phillips HDR which nobody even uses.

    As I understand things, in the real world, there is no such thing as an HDR standard.

    Seems to be akin to Deadwood…

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