Yamaha + Samson=output problems?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Greg Br, Mar 7, 2002.

  1. Greg Br

    Greg Br Second Unit

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    I have dual 20-39cs subs. I had been pushing these with my Sony pro-logic receiver, the sound was very pleasing, I never could bottom these suckers out. The problem I had was that the Sony overheated on Fight Club, Matrix and Pearl Harbour, not a situation I was willing to live with. I added the Samson S700 amp to go with my Yamaha rxv-1000 receiver. I calibrated using avia, the Yamaha was at -18 on the sub level setting of the Yamaha, a full 8db lower than I needed with the Sony as the amp. When I listen to music and some demo dvd's I just was not getting the same level of sound, it was really pronounced with music. I then raised the sub level to -8, a full 10 decibals higher and it seemed ok, but still neeed to be at reference or above to meet my preveous levels of bass, and that just does not seem right with a much bigger amp. With music I previously listened at -30 on the yamaha and often thought the bass was overpowering the rest of the system, but with the new amp I need to go to -15 or -10 to get that same feeling.

    Unlike new SVS users I have a reference so I am sure its not the "you have never heard loud clean bass syndrom". I have checked the phase, the connections, speakers small, lfe to sub, etc. something is definatley not right.

    I read this post in another thread, but did not know this could be a problem

     
  2. jeff lam

    jeff lam Screenwriter

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    Greg,

    That was my quote. I just learned this lesson within the last few weeks. I currently have a Crown CE1000 (450W/ch) which is very hard to drive to full power. I also have a 120W Parts Express plate amp and surprisingly, at a given volume and sub level output(say -30 on the master, and -10 on the sub level), I actually get more volume from the 120W plate amp at half gain than I do with my 450W crown amp at wide open(full gain). It's because the input sensitivity of the crown amp is much higher than the input sensitivity of the plate amp.

    Vince Maskeeper has been explaining this to many people in the last month or so when all that talk about the SVS cs+'s and samson S1000 "not getting loud enough" talk was going on.

    If you want more "input headroom"(be able to turn the sub up loud without cranking the master volume) you need to get a line driver to boost the sub level output or get an amp with a lower input sensitivity.

    I stated "input headroom" because Vince jumped on me last time I said headroom because he thought I was clipping the amp which means you have plenty of line voltage to drive the amp, but I just didn't know what to call it(when you max the level on sub output and amp gain and its still not loud enough). We should create a name for this type of situation if there isn't one already.
     
  3. Greg Br

    Greg Br Second Unit

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    Jeff,

    what is interesting to me is I do not have the + that is were most people were running into problems, I have the new cs models, I also have a direct comparison that many do not have, I can set my lfe to max, and turn my volume +20 over calibration and the clip light does not come on and the subs do not bottem out. I am more concerned with music, I often listen to movies at my calibration level or higher, but not music, thus it does not sound all the great.

    What about the hum that I am hearing?
     
  4. jeff lam

    jeff lam Screenwriter

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    Greg,
    I think you are misunderstanding. The type of sub has nothing to do with the voltage mismatch. I have a Tempest running off the crown, not an SVS. You can be running subs, full range, anything, it doesn't matter. The problem here is between the preamp and the power amp. In our case, -10dBv(receiver/pre-amp) and +4dBu(pro audio power amp). Vince has much more knowledge on this than anyone I know around here so he may be able to answer your question completely.
    The hum is probably just a ground loop and is very common. Try plugging all power cords into the same power strip/surge protector/line conditioner if possible. Also try unplugging the cableTV line from it if that applies. If none of that works, try pick up a 3-2prong adaptor and use that on the component causing the hum. This is usually everyones easy fix but I personally don't like it. It removes the ground from the component and if anything happens internally, this can be VERY Dangerous and can result in electicution and possible serious injury or even death. However most people don't have problems but I would make the 3-2prong plug a last resort.
    BTW, I hope your callibration is not full reference because if you listen at louder than that, that's stinkn' LOUD!
     
  5. Greg Br

    Greg Br Second Unit

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    Jeff

    first of all thanks for your help. I assume I am listening at reference as I calibrate using avia, which is -27 on my Yammy and then listen to movie at that same volume.

    I am undertsanding a bit more but in a way I am a little upset, I thought I had researched that going the pro-rout is the way to go for a sub-amp, but it sounds like if I bought a regular home theater amp I would not be having this problem. I also had thought this was a problem with the Onkoyo receivers and not Yamaha but after reading the last couple of days posts and todays post at HT Spot it is apparent that this is a common problem with the Yamaha. Even at reference unless I had set the Sub level +10 over calibration it did not seem to give the same punch that I had before.

    I will try to fix the ground loop by plugging it into the power strip and not the wall, it is a minor concern to my lack of bass problem.
     
  6. jeff lam

    jeff lam Screenwriter

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    SVS will soon come out with that black box that will boost the sinal to your S700. This will solve the problem you have and you will probably be able to clip the amp with this device in your system.

    What are your levels for sub output at calibration? Is your samson at full gain? What speakers do you have that allows you to use -27 as reference? You must have efficient speakers. My RXV620 is at -16 for full reference and I live in a small place.

    How can you stand listening at full reference? Isn't it too loud? -16 is my reference but I NEVER take it above -30, and usually listen at -35 to -40, however I do live in an appartment and can't crank it up too loud.

    I would suggest not pushing your sub output level higher than -5. Any higher and you will hear distortion from the sub. I have found it is best to keep it at -10(half way) to get a good non-distorted signal. But if you need to take it up higher to properly calibrate, I guess that's what you need to do.
     
  7. Greg Br

    Greg Br Second Unit

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    I may be doing the calibration wrong but here is what I do, you can critique me, I am using the new S&V Avia disk,

    1)I get the rat shack meter on tripod set up at listening position

    2)I turn all speaker level inputs all the way down, except for the mains as the Yammy has no main inputs.

    3)I turn the main volume up until I reach 75db with the main speakers. The left is 2db lounder than the right, but my Yammy does not have main l/r adjust.

    4)I calibrate the surround and center to 75db

    5)I calibrate the sub, it produces a volume out of the left front, then you are supposed to match the volume to that speaker as it alternates, it is about 85db.

    The mains reach 75db at -27, which I assume is reference.

    I do have a 9000cf room.

    Previously I used a Sony to power the subs, with no calibration the minute I plugged them in I was blown away. Now with the Samson I need to crank the LFE and then play music back at -15 to get the bass were it sounds really strong, that used to happen at -30. I keep asking myself am I just having bass head fever, but even my wife said that does not sound nearly as good, and she has a hearing problem.

    I have JBL h420 speakers, they were $489 each in 1993, they are hezagon shaped with a grill at the top, they have a small mid-range and titanium dome tweeter showing. They were supposed to be state of the art. No one seems to know about them, I took them to an audiophile shop once when the crossover broke and the guy told me they were impressive for the little speakers that were inside of them. I use a n-center and n26's for surround.
     
  8. jeff lam

    jeff lam Screenwriter

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    Greg,

    I think you are 10db too low. Avia should be calibrated to 85db not 75. Which disk do you have? Is it the new S&V disk or the old Avia? I haven't seen Avia, but I do have video essentials. With Video essentials you need to calibrate at 75db, with Avia, I believe it's 85dB. So you have all the steps correct, but it's not your true reference. Your reference is actually 10dB lower than true reference(105db peeks). Actually Jack Gilvey calibrates the same way you did I believe. He uses avia, but he purposely uses 75 to calibrate because he likes to listen to movies at 10db lower than reference. You can do it this way as well if you wish, but just realize that -27 on your receiver isn't true reference, it's actually 10db below. If you wish, you can recalibrate using 85db instead of 75db and reset your reference. The choice is yours. Also, most people who listen at lower than reference like to run the sub a few db hot, so with avia you could calibrate to 88-90db and have the bass impact at lower volume levels.

    Your options would be:

    -Wait for SVS's black box and use it to boost your sub level.

    -Go to radioshack and get the rca sa-155 mini amp(I heard this works well)

    -Get an Ebtech Line level shifter to ballance the impedance between -10dbv and +4dbu

    -Get a different amp with lower input sensitivity.
     
  9. Keith Mickunas

    Keith Mickunas Cinematographer

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    Greg, look for DeanQ's threads about the problems he had with his SVS and yamaha. I believe he has two threads on here that have been active today and yesterday. This issue is addressed, and links are provided to some of the other threads that have talked about it, along with a lot of Vince's info on pro amps and the like.
     
  10. Greg Br

    Greg Br Second Unit

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    Jeff,

    I have the new S&V disk. all they say is set your radio shack meter to 70, then make sure it is calibrated to the right of zero, I set mine to 70 + 5 so I believe that is 75db. You may have a good point as they do not talk about reference, just calibration, maybe they are doing this on purpose. If that is correct, should I be calibrating the sub to say 90db which would be +5 from reference, if so theere is no way I could reach that with my current problems.

    I am waiting to here from SVS on this issue, when I emailed them with sub performance problems and mismatch problem with the amp never came up.
     
  11. Greg Br

    Greg Br Second Unit

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    Keith,

    Thank you I stumbled onto those threads after starting this one. Its all of a sudden a hot topic, on the HT Spot website this coming up as well and a thread there is up to 10 posts in about 5 hours, unheard of at that forum.
     
  12. jeff lam

    jeff lam Screenwriter

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    Greg,

    I don't know what the proper calibration level is for the new S&V disc, but if they say 75dB, I guess you are right about it being 75dB. So you are at full reference at -27. That surprises me. Anyway, maybe you could try to get the sub up to 80dB at the -27 volume point. What is the max your sub can do at the -27 volume piont with the amp gain maxed and the sub level at 0?
     
  13. Greg Br

    Greg Br Second Unit

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    I can get it as pretty high at -27, If I set it to -8db istead of -18 on the Yammy it sounds pretty good, but not like it did using the Sony at -11.5 and -27. Iused to listen to music at -35 or so and it sounded great, now I need to go to -15 to get the same bass
     
  14. jeff lam

    jeff lam Screenwriter

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    When you turn it up to -15, aren't your mains just blairing out at you, That's gotta be over 110dB from your mains, How can you stand it? Try measuring your mains from your listening position at this volume. Use the A weighting setting on the meter. If it's over 105 dB, it's far too loud.
     
  15. Greg Br

    Greg Br Second Unit

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    Thats the ticket Jeff, I used to be able to have great bass at -35, the bass slightly dominated the music but thats the way I liked it. Now to get that same bass I need to either do two things

    1)do a normal calibration and crank it up to -15 where it is very very loud or

    2)Max every setting I got, sub to max, samson to max, and then at -35 it still does not sound as good as before, its sounds like it is really working to provide the same bass. If I would use these same settings with my 100 watt receiver I would have had 90% bass and 10% mids and highs.
     
  16. jeff lam

    jeff lam Screenwriter

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    If you listen to music in only 2-ch, a temporary solution would be to use the -10dB for the main's setting on the speaker set-up menu. This will allow you to turn it up to -15 and have solid bass while the main's will not be screaming at you. Do this until you can get the SVS black box or the RS RCA (sa 155) mini amp. Getting a line driver is your only option to get the bass louder without cranking the overall volume. Or a different amp.
     
  17. Greg Br

    Greg Br Second Unit

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    Well tonight I am trouble shooting. checking cables, etc, after that I will look at other options, got to be honest this whole situation makes me want to go out and drink a beer.[​IMG]
    I just want my kick ass SVS bass again![​IMG]
     
  18. jeff lam

    jeff lam Screenwriter

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    Use your sony amp until you can get the line driver.
     
  19. DeanQ

    DeanQ Stunt Coordinator

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    Greg Im having the same problem as you, I have a yamaha receiver and the 25-31cs and samson 700 amp. I had all of my gains and LFE's up just to achieve maximum bass. So in order for me to crank out bass I had to have my system loud as hell. Well It got old quick. After 20 mins my ears would hurt since im only 10 ft away from my 55 inch tv and center speaker and Surround speakers. Well tonight I bought the RCA mini amp and damn did this fix my problem! I can have my volume knob 1/4 way and still have the bass I was getting when I had the volume at 1/2 volume. SO I am very pleased. Sounds great, I had to turn down my SW gain on my receiver and turn down DD LFE and DTS LFE and the gain knob on my RCA mini amp is only up 3 out of the 10 notches. So I suggest go buy a rca mini-amp,call radio shack and ask for this part number to see if they have it in stock Cat.#: 31-5000. It is only $59.99 Now my system is finally complete and I cant stop messing with it for once.
     
  20. DwightK

    DwightK Second Unit

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    Interesting eh? RXV1200 receiver with a new driver 16-46CS. I experimented with 3 different amps and came away with the same issue you folks are having when I tried a pro-audio amp (Ratshack/Pyle Pro). The PA amp was by far the most powerful at 250W unbridged and >350W bridged and I noticed that it was not responding at all like my ancient 100W Sherwood reciever nor a plate amp I pulled outa my old Velo CT100 (120W?). The PA amp would hit clean and hard but only at near reference levels.
    Reference level for me is -21.5 using either the yamaha test tones or the Sound and Vision disk. Using the other 2 amps I could feel the bass even around -40 but the PA amp it wasn't till -30. A great low volume bass test is the announcement music for a Battlebot match if you have an ep tivo'd [​IMG]
    Coming from a layman, I believe this may only be an issue with the new drivers in use starting late december? Very coincidental otherwise.
    I will be purchasing a plate amp of some flavor. Most likely the Stryke AMP350 with the boost removed or the PE250 but that is a decision for tomorrow morning.
    hope this all works out in the end.
     

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