Yamaha RX-Z9 Flagship Receiver the new Leader?-

Rich Wenzel

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Aug 9, 2002
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556
whats interesting is it has a faroudja dcdi on the front...like maybe they have an internal scalre....

but not dvi input/outputs

Rich
 

Seth_L

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Apr 5, 2002
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Seems to me the new Sony 9000ES receiver would be the new leader, but of course opinions will vary.
 

Keith Mickunas

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Rich, I believe it converts all incoming video to component, that's why it has the Faroudja processing.
 

Rich Wenzel

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Aug 9, 2002
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from the link that Keith posted, it seems that the Z9 gives you the option to upconvert everything to 480p...hmmm, i would think that most people springing for a receiver like this would have a display that would do some form of hd...

still not sure why they dont have dvi....

seems like good ideas and poor execution to me, unless there are some good explanations...

Rich
 

Cahyo Wicaksono

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Oct 9, 2003
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Upscaling to HD resolution, even using DVI output with HDCP is not legally finalized yet. It's about copyright issues. Yamaha has no control about that.

But even without the line-doubler, the RX-Z9 is beyond impressive.

10-band parametric EQ for auto calibration PLUS and additional 10-band graphic EQ for manual fine tuning beyond YPAO is a darn great feature

Much higher DSP resolution is also no slouch.

The two features above makes the RX-Z9 a great buy.
 

Sean M

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Feb 12, 2000
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Cahyo what are you talking about? There are no copyright issues with upscaling an image to HD resolutions and then outputting it to a display. None. The only issue regarding upscaling a digital source is that if it has HDCP then it cannot be converted to analog after processing or be output digitally without the HDCP flags in the data stream.

There are dozens of stand alone scalers on the market that upscale external sources to HD resolutions and beyond and they have no copyright issues whatsoever, apart from the HDCP limitation outlined above. Yamaha is free to do what they want with any video signal the Z-9 receives in analog form, regardless of the resolution.

I think there are no DVI inputs on this receiver for a variety of reasons:

First, even stand alone scalers have had trouble with HDCP over DVI when trying to figure out what is HDCP and what isn't. There are a few that get it right, but it's complicated, plus you have to apply for an HDCP license, which costs (a lot of) money, and this is already a feature rich receiver. The alternative would be to just pass through the DVI signal untouched, eating up real estate on the back panel for unprocessed inputs.

Second, I believe that the Z-9 is using the Faroudja FLI-2300 scaler on a chip, as it has the True Life enhancements on it that are not available on the previous 22xx series of chips (of which 3 were required, plus a scaling chip to get the same functionality). This may limit their ability to take in and process DVI signals with or without HDCP due to technical or licensing limitations, though I'm not entirely sure that either would be a problem. This is the first non-display, non-PC board based product I've seen with this chip, so there's no telling what restrictions were placed on its implementation. This chip can take any signal from 480i to 1080i and deinterlace (DCDi is used only on 480i signals, 1080i uses a simple bob-weave deinterlace method) and scale it to whatever resolution you desire.

Third, there just isn't much demand for DVI at this point. If you have a new display with DVI and/or HDCP great, but you've got at most, what, two sources? HD set top box and DVD player with DVI out, max. Perhaps a PC or HTPC, but that will normally take the place of the DVD player with DVI. The cost of DVI switches is coming down for those that need them. This receiver will be obsolete by the time more DVI sources are available. Plus, there are practically no receivers or pre-pro's with DVI switching available on the market, so it's not necessary to be competitive. Even the new 59TXi doesn't have it. Sony will switch DVI, and perhaps Denon will too, but Sony won't give you better processing of your SD sources than your display or provide a single scan rate or native res to your display.

I'm not saying the Yamaha will scale video to a resolution of your choosing, but it certainly seems to be possible given the chipset. If it does, and it takes anything from 480i to 1080i on any of its component inputs, it will be one of the few stand alone devices to do this at all. The Key Digital HD Leeza might be able to do this with a firmware update, but it's a $4000 scaler with no audio capabilities. I'd say that competent video processing trumps DVI switching every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

But that's just me.
 

Cahyo Wicaksono

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Sean,

I'm talking about the reason why Denon 5900 DVI is not activated, I'm also talking about the reason Pioneer DV-59 is not out yet. IIRC, they are both waiting for approval for DVI scaling to 1080i. I read somewhere about the DVI outputs of Bravo and Samsung are actually still pending approval.

(PS, I'm not talking about DVI switching nor DVI input, which both are finalized)
 

Sean M

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Feb 12, 2000
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What you are refferring to is the DVD forum's approval of DVI equipped DVD players outputting a digital signal. Last I heard, that had settled that areguement, but the players to use DVI out have to be approved by the forum first. But this applies only to members of the forum or those that wish to release a player with thier blessing. There are no legal ramifications or copyright issues involved if that digital output is copy protected. If it's not then it's more of a grey area as I don't think anyone is going after D1 or folks offering SDI mods on DVD players.

But your post appeared to be a response to the post above yours asking why there was no DVI input on the Yamaha and was therefore confusing.
 

Rich Wenzel

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Aug 9, 2002
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556
the response is very confusing

"Upscaling to HD resolution, even using DVI output with HDCP is not legally finalized yet. It's about copyright issues. Yamaha has no control about that."

upscaling to hd resolution, using dvi is completely acceptable...and is done by lots of companies...you can use component of a dvi output..my statement still stands, the fact that yamaha didnt include that, but included a scaler in the receiver, is befuddling to me...

also, not including dvi outputs is also befuddling, even if the standards are not set yet, like denon and marantz that have dvi outputs that are not active yet, it makes the piece much more appealing from an upgradeability perspective...

i find this piece to be intriguing at best...i would not purchase it because i feel its poorly designed...

rich
 

DanielSmi

Second Unit
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Mar 20, 2002
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455
Actually DenonJeff will be releasing upgrade cd to activate the DVI ports on monday. Also the next batch of 5900 will already have the port activated. Right now it's just abouting getting them on the market. The reason the the 59avi hasn't been released is is because it's gonna be released in January and that's always been it's release date they never moved it back because of the DVD forum, besides it uses HDMI not DVI.

Daniel Smith
 

Keith Mickunas

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It's poorly designed because it lacks one feature very few people need? Or are there other things wrong with it?

Yamaha's flagships have always been rather nice receivers with great features. They may not have all the cutting edge features at the time of their release, but they compete well with every other flagship receiver out there. Their DSP modes are widely hailed, why others' are considered mostly gimmicks, plus most that have tried it like their front effects channels. And they pretty much provide inputs and outputs for just about anything imaginable.

The only thing I'd like to see is multiple 5.1 inputs and bass management on those inputs. The bass management is probably not going to be seen on their's ever, and if firewire takes off the 5.1 inputs will become less needed. So this thing is just about perfect in my mind. I don't need dvi because I bought a Mits last year, my mistake as they decided not to honor their promise. Still, I have other things to buy first, so I'll probably wait to upgrade from my RX-V1 until they come out with the Z9's successor, whatever that may be called since they can't decide on a naming convention for the flagship.
 

Rich Wenzel

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Aug 9, 2002
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for a $4000 piece, yes...if this is a new statement piece, than yes...

what about this would lead me to upgrade from a z1 or a 5803...nothing...

they include a scaler, but limit it...a large portion of people who would be in the market for this type of receiver will have 720p or 1080i capable displays...why pay for a scaler that is not fully useful, when you could go get a zinwell or a lumagen...this just adds cost...

and then they fail to include room for dvi upgrade...

if you are in the market for a new receiver, this may or may not interest someone...if you have a z1 or 5803, or separates that are within the last 2 years, this offers no reason to upgrade...

so yeah, i consider it a failure...

im not bashing yamaha, mind you...when the z1 came out, i thought it was (and is) a good piece...i just think they missed the ball with this piece...they had good ideas, but they didnt implement them well...

Rich
 

Cahyo Wicaksono

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Oct 9, 2003
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I just talked to a Yamaha rep. According to the spec he has, the scaler WILL scale to 720p or 1080i (selectable) IF the signal is not copyprotected.

So my guess is if you have a DVD player, set it to interlaced output, take that signal into a macrovision-blocker, and take that output to Z9 and it will upscale it to 720p or 1080i.
 

Rich Wenzel

Supporting Actor
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Aug 9, 2002
Messages
556
Cahyo, if thats true, than its makes much more sense...Yamaha should put that in their marketing literature...They should also put more details about its scaling capabilities.

Rich
 

Keith Mickunas

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if you have a z1 or 5803, or separates that are within the last 2 years, this offers no reason to upgrade...
Hell, if you have the DSP-A1, RX-V1, or RX-Z1, why would you upgrade? Flagship receivers have a long life in my opinion. If you need to upgrade, and want everything you can possibly get in a receiver, the RX-Z9 is definitely one to consider. It's got some features you just won't find elsewhere. Now whether or not it's worth the $1600 premium over the RX-V1 is another question.

It may not be perfect, but it's definitely no worse than the competition. I think it's a stretch to call it poorly designed or a failure if it only lacks one feature that a small minority of people can use.
 

Sean M

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The FLI-2300 chip doesn't have any problem with deinterlaceing or scaling a Macrovision encoded signal. There are several projectors that use this chip, as well as the Holograph 3D II and none of them have issues with teh interlaced or progressive output of a DVD player with Macrovision. I wonder what copy protection he's referring to.

How the scaling is implemented in this receiver is key to the value of the feature. If you can input any signal from 480i to 1080i on all of the component inputs and have it scaled properly to another HD resolution or passed through depending on res, then it's definately worth the upgrade. It should certainly be able to do this given the chipset. But it all depends on the implementation. I hope they didn't forget aspect ratio controls. That'd be a shame.
 

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