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Xbox One X owners thread

Discussion in 'Gaming' started by Sam Posten, Jun 11, 2017.

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  1. LeoA

    LeoA Cinematographer

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    I'm not trying to sell anyone on this and don't see it being worth the price at this moment in time, but one has to look past the immediate future to understand the value with any new system purchase.

    I can see the logic if one was shopping for a Xbox One today and was going to spend several hundred dollars, in considering paying the premium to future proof themselves to a degree (At least for the next 2 or 3 years). The list of Xbox One X games doesn't start and end with the currently announced lineup.

    I wouldn't do it since these upgrades sadly appear likely to become a regular thing and I'd rather be a step or so behind and enjoy the savings, even if it means a lesser resolution and a few frame rate hiccups along the way.

    But I can still see the other side of the fence.
     
  2. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Agreed that the Xbox One X will get more games than just what is coming by the end of 2017. However, I'm skeptical that it really has another 2-3 years left in it. It is, above all else, an Xbox ONE, which means it's tied to the same generation as the original Xbox One that came out 3.5 years ago. So when the One generation is over, so is the One X. If MS were to try and make the One X into the weaker version of their next console (so every console release, each 3 or so years, was a half-step to generations) then I could see the investment being worth it. But I'm not entirely confident. At this point, I'm not sure MS will bother to keep making consoles after the X, considering they're doubling-down heavily on PC.

    I think the timing of the PS4 Pro was either just right or slightly late. It came when 4K TV prices were going down and the technology was spreading, plus VR was finally available and would improve that experience. But I really don't know what amount of market there is for Microsoft to try and grab. The One is a big disappointment in regards to sales numbers and MS has openly stated they expect to sell the S more than the X in the next year. So what business imperative was driving this product? What does that say about their future plans and their stability?
     
  3. Message #43 of 86 Jun 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    LeoA

    LeoA Cinematographer

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    I have no doubt that it will enjoy healthy support for several years. And I don't believe that Microsoft has any intentions of leaving this market, but I do see convergence with desktop PC's growing in the future, further blurring the lines at Microsoft between PC's and consoles. I think we've seen ample evidence that this is a direction that MS wants to head towards, with the only question being just how far they'll ultimately take it.

    And i believe Phil Spencer fully explained why he feels that way about their projection for the Xbox sales composition in 2017. This new system is an expensive option, the Xbox One S is still a very capable machine, and most of all, 4K televisions are still in their infancy with a low install base and too many customers that are unaware of why they should want 4k.

    It makes little sense for an informed consumer to spend $500 for a system they can't take full advantage of on a 1080p or lower display. Yet because of today's standardized architecture, a higher-end option can be provided with little hassle, while taking advantage of 4k assets that many developers are already creating for PC customers of their software.

    I see x86 based consoles continuing into the future. And I don't think it's crazy talk to suggest that one day in two or three years, we might see regular Xbox One and Xbox One S support for new software development be concluded for the sake of better games (I believe Spencer, the likely source for your sales statement, acknowledged this at the same time). Then the baseline hardware would shift forward to the X.

    They can't support the regular Xbox One forever (Although with this new era of more standardized architecture, I bet regular XB1 games will be playable for a generation of two after regular XB1 development has ceased). At some point mandating that software support the earliest generation of this hardware is going to have to go since it's holding back developers too much.

    But right now, I think the baseline XB1 and PS4 still have life left in them for several years yet. Even if they didn't and support soon ends, it's already been a good run with tons of great games. People have gotten their money's worth.
     
  4. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    If the plan is to eventually use the Xbox One X as the basis for the next generation, eventually making it be the "simple" model of the Xbox 4 (similar to how the Xbox One is the "simple" model next to the S and X) then that's not the worst idea. However, I genuinely do not believe they would do this for a handful of reasons. Without really wading too much into that, the fact of the matter is that MS has said the X is squarely an Xbox One, not a next gen console, and every game you buy will play on the One, S, and X. Anything further is just us guessing and hoping with no proof.

    For what it's worth, the discerning gamer who wants to experience 4K and HDR (can we agree that HDR is the more "impressive" visual experience over 4K?) can already do so to some degree on the S for half the price of an X, and do so right now. The controller is the same, the audio codecs are the same, the games themselves are the same, and sometimes the actual experience (framerate, loading times, etc.) will be the same (especially for anything online), so all your getting for that extra $250 is more pixels than you eye can technically even discern.
     
  5. Message #45 of 86 Jun 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
    DavidMiller

    DavidMiller Screenwriter

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    and the same can be said of the PS Pro so your point is... Don't buy it because it costs more money? Just like in the PC gaming world better equipment will lead to a better gaming experience. Smother graphics, less tearing, etc... The Xbox One S added just enough to play back 4K/HDR movies and HDR gaming. I don't think it does a good job all the time and more horse power is going to give a better experience. However, I have already commented on this before and it does seem like your whole purpose in life is to make everyone a Sony gamer which isn't going to happen. :)
     
  6. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Well, to be fair, I did not upgrade my PS4 to a PS4 Pro, and my argument against the Xbox One X absolutely stands against the Pro, as well. It's cool if you have the money and TV, but essentially a waste. I'm not trying to argue people should buy a PS4 Pro, I'm arguing that MS is introducing a DOA console.
     
  7. DavidMiller

    DavidMiller Screenwriter

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    And why wouldn't the PS Pro also be DOA... Heck it doesn't even play 4K Blu-rays...
     
  8. Sam Posten

    Sam Posten Moderator
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    You crazy, Morgan
     
  9. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    An argument made viewing beta software on unreleased hardware, months in advance of actual release, when it's known that games that take optimal advantage of hardware appear a year or more after hardware release. So you're making predictions a full 18 months before it would be appropriate to judge a system's capability.

    For what it's worth, I see MS and Sony are both trying to get into the PC "iteration" game without having the millions of possible hardware combinations that plague PC compatibility. They can still tightly control the hardware, making for a relatively smooth programming experience for their devs, while not locking themselves into a 5-7 year hardware cycle.

    Programmers are no stranger to making games at a base level and enabling additional assets to take advantage of more powerful hardware. And this way, they keep people interested in the brand and rebuying hardware in advance of when they'd normally want to (kind of like how we're all upgrading our phones and tablets every 2-3 years). You are trying to judge them on the old model of hardware releases, and I'm seeing both Microsoft and Sony trying to change the model to something else.
     
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  10. Message #50 of 86 Jun 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
    Bob_L

    Bob_L Supporting Actor

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    Well, I'm preordering two Xbox One X consoles for Day One delivery. Just because I can. :D I figure I get a $250 UHD player and a $250 console x 2.
     
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  11. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    DavidMiller - honestly, the PS4 Pro kind of is DOA. The upgraded visuals aren't a big enough leap over the regular PS4 and the sales aren't significant. I think Sony said like 20% of PS4 sales since November were Pros and about 50% of those were PS4 owners upgrading. And while it doesn't play 4K Bluray discs, I don't think that's actually a big deal with most consumers. I should also note that HDR is on the regular PS4 and not just the Pro, making the Pro even less of a worthy upgrade.

    That said, I think the reasons the Pro beats the One X boils down to it being released earlier in the generation cycle and at $100 less. I'm not saying the Pro was the best thing ever and, like I said, I don't have one or intend to buy one, but I do think it was a better business move by Sony than the One X is going to be by MS.

    Carlo - I don't really think MS would show significantly incomplete games and hardware just 5 months before release and use that to convince people to buy their console. Sure, games in the next couple years might look even better, but I don't really think what you could go look at from Forza on One X right now is going to be any different from what you'll see on the One X over the next year or two. Even though it's "new" hardware, it's basically an Xbox One S with more memory and a faster processor but bottlenecked to a degree because all Xbox One games need to run on ALL Xbox One consoles (regular, S, X). So don't expect significantly more polygons, just sharper textures and a higher resolution. Because, like you said, the architecture and development environment of the One X is so similar to PC and so well-known to developers, I really question just how far they can push the hardware over the next couple years beyond what we already assume we will see while still being tethered to the original Xbox One.

    I don't think Sony and MS are jumping on the PC-style upgrade cycle, but rather (like you sort of mentioned) more the mobile/tablet cycle. People upgrade PCs and components pretty infrequently, their tablets every 3-4 years, and their phones ever 1-2 years. All technology is advancing at a rate faster than people are interested in spending their money on it. That's why DVD took off but Bluray didn't, while HDTVs sold well but 3D and 4K haven't, and why the PS4 Pro did sort of okay-ish and the One X will probably barely register anything.
     
  12. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    And that's where we fundamentally disagree. You "don't think" MS will do this. I actually know people in the videogame industry, programming actual games (for mobile, PC, and console). They all are running up to their deadlines. They're all improving/tweaking right up until discs are pressed and final downloads are available. This is the norm, not the exception. The hardware for the X is mostly finalized, that I'll agree with. But it's the software and how it maximizes the use of it that is still very much beta. The devs were concerned of making the base game correctly, which will run on all Xboxes, and are only adding "4K assets" at a later date. Many of the 4K scenes we saw were likely done only for the scenes we saw, just for this demo, and likely aren't even fully developed for the rest of the game. This is the way the gaming industry works. Full stop.
    It's both. It has elements of the mobile/tablet cycle, but not at anywhere near the pace (which is yearly for Apple).
     
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  13. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Carlo - I don't know where the disagreement between us is on the One X demos. I said that what we saw is indicative of how the final games will look. You disagreed with the suggestion that the games shown were completed (which I never said) then agreed that the scenes/demos shown off on the One X were likely completed specifically for the show and are effectively finished, even in that limited state (which I agree with). So...how would it be incorrect for me to assume that, say, the final version of Forza running on One X will look exactly like the version of Forza that MS showed off 2 weeks ago running on One X? I do not seriously expect something to come out on One X in 1-2 years that is so mind-blowingly awesome and exclusive to the Xbox ecosystem that it will jumpstart One X sales. But I do seriously believe that MS is going to be a far distant 2nd to Sony (possibly 3rd with Nintendo) this generation, regardless of how powerful the One X is.

    The PC upgrade cycle, for the vast majority of users, is not a 1-2 year replenishment. Going after PC gamers by offering more frequent hardware updates wouldn't make sense. PC gamers tend to upgrade components for a couple hundred bucks at a time and get more power than what a $500 console can offer. But the vast majority of phone and tablet customers are used to shelling out $300-500 every 2-3 years for a new phone because the pace of the tech in phones moves so fast and they want it, since it's a mass-market consumer device. Gaming PC tech isn't as widespread as consoles are trying to be. I'm curious how many units each new annual graphics card release even sells compared to a console.
     
  14. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    Morgan just FYI I'm done replying to you in this thread. We're talking past each other and I have better things to do.
     
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  15. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    "(can we agree that HDR is the more "impressive" visual experience over 4K?) "

    Ummm...no we cannot. The 4K aspect is waaay more impressive than HDR(which I do love).
     
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  16. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Tino - really? Every impression or preview that I read from E3 said that the difference between HD and 4K didn't seem like a huge deal to the eyes but HDR really made games pop and look amazing. Aside from the hardware companies pushing 4K, the games press seems not nearly as interested in 4K.
     
  17. Sam Posten

    Sam Posten Moderator
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    I'm with Morgan on that point. HDR > resolution bump
     
  18. Bryan^H

    Bryan^H Producer

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    HDR is a game killer for me. The bright scenes in games sure, great.
    The dark areas(like cave environments) become way too dark and render a game nearly un-navigateable. Luckily I can turn it off.
     
  19. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    GameSpot has an article about a Digital Foundry analysis of a bunch of games running on Xbox One vs. Xbox One X: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-x-performance-detailed-native-4k-proved-d/1100-6451444/ and http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-microsofts-xbox-one-x-benchmarks-revealed

    In short, the games do run at a higher resolution and better framerates, generally. But only one or two are actually hitting 4K 60 fps (Forza is the best one, which should be expected since the series is known for its graphics and is an Xbox One X showpiece). Dynamic resolution and checkerboard rendering will be prevalent in the early stages of the One X's life.

    I was talking with a coworker about how one of the big bottlenecks for both the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X right now is the CPU. Graphically, games can look absolutely gorgeous and run smoothly, but once you start to add a lot of AI or physics simulation to a game then you're going to run into problems. Racing games tend to be the standard for how pretty things can look because the behind-the-scenes simulation stuff is much more minimal compared to something like Shadow of Mordor or Gears of War. Neither Sony nor MS really bumped up the power of the CPU for their mid-gen upgrades so games will only look prettier (which is why MS is saying that games on the One X will get about a 4x resolution increase but not much else).

    In that breakdown at the links above, the framerate changes seem minimal. Adding a few frames per second isn't a huge deal. But going from 1080p to 4K at the same framerate is pretty impressive. That said, with all the talk about the One X being the most powerful console ever, I was kind of expecting more out of the gate.
     
  20. DavidMiller

    DavidMiller Screenwriter

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    In Forza's case they offload some of the heavy CPU work to the cloud. It has been part of the design since the Xbox One launched but very few titles make use of that feature because it would require you to write the game different then you write the one for Sony. Not that I'm looking for a deep conversation on the topic.
     

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