XBOX 360 HDMI 120GB hard drive! (1 Viewer)

[Jean D]

Rumor has it the HDMI on the 360 will be 1.2 not 1.3. Still think its worth it?

This was an article from gizmodo.com which quotes a source from AVS Forums


I understand its about color balance, but whats the major significance being able to adjust this on the 360, Wouldn't that possibly throw off any calibrations my television had (if I used the VGA output)

 

[RAF]

This whole question about HDMI output being 1.2 or 1.3 in order to be of any use for HD audio codecs is, in my opinion, being blown way out of proportion and a lot of supposedly "knowledgeable" commentary on forums like AVS isn't helping the situation. Yes, if you need to rely on decoding Dolby Digital + and TrueHD audio codecs in your receiver then HDMI 1.3 on both ends would be required. But that just isn't the case right now. Both my HD-DVD player (XA-1) and Blu-ray player (PS3) do the decoding of these HD audio formats in the player so even HDMI 1.1 (which I currently have on my Denon 3806 AVR) does the job quite nicely. As long as the player does the decoding then you don't have to have anything above 1.1 to fully enjoy the newer sound formats. All your receiver has to be able to do is handle the decoded PCM stream via HDMI (any flavor).

Of course, the only thing we won't know for sure until either specs are released or until XBox 1337s ("Elites") reach the shelves is whether or not the new box will decode the HD audio codecs. It seems to me that this will be a necessary feature if the 1337 is to be considered a serious HD disc player with full functionality - especially since its major competition seems to be the PS3 for games and stand alone HD-DVD players for HD video (and audio!). If the competition does something important that you don't offer then you already have two strikes against you before you even step up to the plate. Passing a 1080p video picture through HDMI is only half of the story. I'm guessing that the new XBox Elite will offer HD audio codec decoding before output via HDMI - especially since the XBox has always been relatively seamless with firmware upgrading and firmware upgrading is the way that all the other HD players (both formats) have handled new audio decoding.

 

[Jefferson Morris]

Maybe I'm just bitter, but 'tis also a bit of a stick in the eye to people who got the 360 early on, like myself. By 2005 HDMI clearly was going to be the HD standard well into the future, and it should have been included (or at least there should have been the potential for its inclusion on that first generation of consoles).

I just recently bought a 1080p projector that handles HDMI, so I'd certainly like to have that capability out of my XBox, but I'm not going to purchase a whole new console for it. Instead, all other things being equal, I'll be buying the PS3 versions of multi-platform games, and the Blu-Ray versions of multi-format movies, to play them over my PS3 and its HDMI connection. Sony has gotten on my nerves in recent months, and the PS3s introduction has been all but a disaster, but at least their console wasn't just an interim solution. HDMI - check. Wireless - check. Reasonably big hard drive - check.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my 360 and its HD-DVD add-on, and it certainly looks great over component, but I'm still disappointed. However, I won't begrudge those who (wisely) held off on buying a 360 up until now.

--Jefferson Morris

 

[Romier S]

It most certainly is a necessary feature for those wanting full functionality. Microsoft's current answer to that is very simply to go out and buy a stand alone player.

Also, we haven't even touched on the remaining question of exactly how the 360 is handling the digital path for HDMI? Currently the 360 is using an analogue scaler chip by the name of "ANA". There have been rumors that Microsoft is updating the hardware with the Elite with a digital scaler by the codename of "H-ANA". However, recent revelations by Microsoft suggest that nothing has been changed internally on the Elite model. Which means that the video signal may not have a clear direct digital path as anyone using the HDMI connection would hope for. Instead it will need to be converted to analogue and back to digital via the HDMI output. Completely defeating the purpose of having such a connection.

This is a stop gap solution for Microsoft. It's meant to appeal to the "hardcore" user but frankly it comes off extraordinarily half-assed and the price just isn't right considering what's included in my opinion. Considering there have been endless rumors about an even more updated model of the console with the 65nm chipset (which will reduce heat ouput) and further hardware revisions that will improve reliability (which considering the failure rate on the 360 is far more important to me) and functionality (just look at the above commentary), and I personally do not see the point in upgrading at this point. New buyers? Sure.

 

[CRyan]

Holy Hell. I had no idea they were going to be that stupid. There is abolutely NO reason to upgrade to the ELITE. 1080p alone is not worth it imo - Not to mention some can do this with component anyway.

Someone needs to tell me then why would someone buy this model that already has the other?

Honestly, this sounds like nothing more than giving the box the ability to SAY "we have HDMI." I am sure the box will not mention that it is crippled.

 

[Romier S]

Well, let's keep in mind that we won't really be able to get a definitive on how the 360 is handling the HDMI connectivity until it's actually on store shelves. I'm sure tech sites like Arstechnica will open up the system and do a nice full report on what's been changed when it's out there for general consumption. Early models of the Elite that were leaked months ago showed it with the "H-ANA" chip already installed. Microsoft may not bother mentioning that as a hardware change as it's fairly seamless to the end user.

 

[Jean D]

So Microsoft is looking at the Xbox like they do their operating systems. every couple years you can update to the newer one? But if they did this, then the market would be saturated w/ 360's of all kinds. They would need to create reasons why the newer higher end models are much better and truly elite.

 

[RAF]

Very simple - HD Audio codecs since the current 360 doesn't offer any way to access these tracks by not having either HDMI or 5.1 analog output. HDMI is also good for us who want a "one wire solution" (although I'm reserving judgment on this until I see how the 1337 handles the video signal). In any event I'm not adding a new "dedicated" HD-DVD player to my home until I see a bit more how the format wars progress. While my 1st generation Toshiba XA-1 is infuriating with its sluggishness, terrible remote and many other quirks, that's it for now with stand alone HD-DVD players for me.

To me, the HD Audio is as important a component as the HD Video on these HD discs. In addition, I'm looking forward to adding a second XBox to the house for another room. The 360 gets so much play that I sometimes wish I had it in more than one room. The new "Elite" - with its bigger HD, added features, etc. makes perfect sense for my particular situation.

 

[BrianB]

And the elite will not allow you access to those HD Audio Codecs unless you're willing to accept 2.0 output. See the quotes in Romier's post from yesterday.

 

[CRyan]

Yeah. What Brian said. That is why I asked the question. If true, the new audio will NOT be available even on the NEW box. How stupid this is.

 

[RAF]

My apologies, CRyan! I somehow overlooked Romier's response in this thread a few days before (or glossed over some of the important points he made).

Based on the content of that message I fully agree with your position. This "Elite" is merely a stopgap measure instead of a full HD-DVD solution. I'm going to have to take a hard look at my decision to upgrade to a 1337 when it's released. On the one hand, I would like the HDMI output for 1080p and I also like the fact that the hard drive is 6x larger than the original. But the downside is that this is a flawed HD-DVD implementation without HD audio codec support. I guess I'll just have to see whether the price is worth it to me to add HDMI video and 120g capacity (rather than spending $179 for a new Hdrive for the 360.) That means that the "true" cost of the Elite is $300 (assuming I decide to keep the old 360 for use elsewhere in the house.) It certainly means I'm going to have to look for a better HD-DVD player at CEDIA in September. Yes, I know the Toshiba 2nd Gen. players are out there now, but I don't think that the HD-DVD saga ends with those new models.

There was one point in Amir's quoted comments that is a little confusing. He states that since the XBox is based on HDMI 1.2 and not 1.3 it cannot output DD+ nor TrueHD. I'm assuming he meant to say that it cannot output the undecoded form of those codecs because if the player does the decoding then even HDMI 1.1 has the capacity to send out all the HD audio codecs post-processed as LPCM. The first Gen. Toshiba XA-1 that I own is only HDMI 1.1 and does a good job outputting those decoded codecs. The real problem appears to be some inadequate audio capabilities on the current 360 (and the new "Elite") that limits LPCM output to 2 channel instead of 5.1 (or 7.1).

Obviously the 1337 isn't going to be a full-function HD-DVD player and, as such, cannot compare to the PS3 in terms of HD disc video and audio performance.

 

[Carlo_M]

Since the source of those specs aren't final, I will wait until we have official word from the production version of the Elite before making a decision. One thing that I will make unequivocally clear to Microsoft:

No HDMI 1.3 = No Sale.

If it's true that it's 1.2, this would be a shame. The Elite is MS's chance for a mulligan, a do-over, to really get it right this time. I can sort of (just barely) understand not changing the CPU to a smaller, cooler running model, if it affects the price. Although with the amount of heat related problems in the first run it justified doing so, I can understand when bean counters win out over common sense.

But 1.3 really isn't a trivial upgrade. With regards to the new audio codecs, it's an absolute necessity. Had the Elite been released half a year or more ago, the omission might be understood if not condoned. But releasing it in April of 2007, just when the HD formats are starting to pick up a little steam, is really shortsighted.

I wonder what they'll call the revision after Elite (1337), the PWNED?

 

[RAF]

Actually, while I agree with you that I probably won't buy another piece of HDMI enabled equipment that is not version 1.3 (except for my upcoming JVC DLA-RS1 projector where this is really not an issue due to the video-only capabilities of the projector and the state of video at this point in time) I would like to point out that you don't need 1.3 for all the available and proposed audio codecs as long as the player does the decoding internally. All forms of HDMI will pass the decoded LPCM stream to receivers able to handle this decoded stream.

That said, the fact that Microsoft has announced that the "new" 1337 will not offer any audio processing means that the inability to pass all raw HD audio codecs via the presence of HDMI 1.3 compounds the insult. I understand that the 1337 is a stopgap measure because MS determined that reworking the internal chips to allow for audio decoding is beyond the scope of the current project. But not at least providing access to the native audio codecs on the HD-DVDs completely eliminates any post-player processing possibilities (talk about alliteration!). I suspect that this is not only related to what's going on inside the XBox but what is not being sent from the 2nd Generation Toshiba Player that is the heart of the HD-DVD add-on. My gut feeling is that the player has the capacity to access the codecs (why wouldn't it? It's used on current Toshiba standalone units) but as part of the cost cutting to bring this XBox HD player to market Microsoft left out the necessary components to do the job. If it's not coming out of the player to start with then it's not going to come out of any HDMI 1.3 outputs from the XBox either the way things now stand.

I would love to hear someone from Microsoft tell us exactly what gets sent from the external HD-DVD player to the XBOX in case my assumptions are incorrect. If it turns out that the HD audio codecs do, in fact, make it to the XBOX from the player then the lack of HDMI 1.3 is even more disturbing since when you add HDMI circuitry that's when you make the choice regarding which "flavor" to install.

Food for thought.

 

[King Jeff]

Well, if I get this, I'd still be using an optical cable for the sound because my reciever doesn't have an HDMI input. But the new system would be nice.

 

[Paul Hillenbrand]

Question:

Does the portable player have an HDMI output to the 360?
Because, if it can't "pass the raw HD audio codecs via" HDMI 1.3, how could it pass the HD codecs to the Elite for processing, even if the Elite had HDMI 1.3 output?

Paul

 

[Jean D]

I think the HD-DVD add on, connects to the Xbox via a USB cable.

 

[JeffMuller]

As I understand it, the HD-DVD is connected via USB, and is purely a data source. Any processing of that data is done by the 360. So whatever audio tracks are on the disk are accessible to the 360. It's just a matter of the format that they're transferred off of the 360 to the receiver.

Jeff

 

[Paul Hillenbrand]

For the new audio to be "accessible" to the 360, wouldn't you at least need an HDMI 1.1 or later interface for the "add on" to pass HD-multichannel-linear PCM to the XBOX?

Does a USB interface have enough bandwidth, to handle high-resolution - multichannel - linear PCM?

Does the "add on" decompress the soundtrack to linear PCM?

The "add on" itself, would need an HDMI 1.3 interface for its ability to send the lossless formats in their encoded forms, over the cable to the Elite for decoding and processing.

Paul

 

[JeffMuller]

OK, I'll fully admit up-front that I have no real knowledge about how the thing is implemented. So anybody, feel free to correct anything that's wrong.

But, AFAIK, there is no HDMI from the add-on drive (right?). The 360 just uses the HD-DVD drive as a disc drive. So, in other words, all it (the HD-DVD) knows how to do is pull data off of the physical media. The 360 just reads the raw data over the USB. The USB is fast enough, because it's all compressed data. The 360 is responsible for any and all decompression. The 360 would determine whether to decode the audio and send if via analog, or to just send the compressed bits.

All audio and video data are accessible to the 360. It doesn't need HDMI at all to get it off the drive. How the data gets from the 360 to an audio receiver is different issue, and that is where the HDMI would come into play.

 

[Paul Hillenbrand]

It's been two days with no one responding to your questions, so I'm going to try to clarify a couple of things.
All audio, except the encoded lossless formats, are accessible to the 360. They can travel via USB.

Only an HDMI 1.3 interface, can transport encoded lossless audio to the 360 or any other AVR for decoding and processing.

The "add on", needs an HDMI 1.3 interface, for the lossless audio to "get off the drive" for 360 access, because if this weren't true, then any HD player could send encoded lossless formats to any AVR/XBOX/Elite via USB.

The same "issue" is needed, to get the encoded lossless data from the 360 to an audio receiver.

Paul