X2 (2003) (1 Viewer)

[Luis S]

Alex, I think we need a seperate thread so we can duke it out, our eplies to each other are just to damn long! How many could survive machine gun fire? Ill get back to you I got that X-Men encyclopedia somewhere...



No, Daredevil illustrates that again the wrong director for the job will do a mediocre job with the material. And X-Men tries to fit in more refrences for the fans than DD. And because of that it too suffers. The movie I want to see could be spectacular if handled by the right director/writers. And it would probaly blow everyone away.

The war rages on....

Luis S

 

[JonZ]

I dont think the Superman approach would work well with X-Men.

Ok, If your not going to agree with me fine, we'll have to agree to disagree but I still say most of these movies work best when placed in reality(although there are exceptions such as Dick Tracy).

Basing the film in reality makes the things the characters do and their powers all the more fantastic.My favorite scene in DD was when they showed him scarred up and taking the painkillers. Samm Hamm said this while being interviewed after finishing the script for Batman. Batman should be somthingpeople dont really believe exists.It should never be a case of "Oh theres Batman running across the rooftop again". He definitely shouldnt be walking around at Fund Raisers and whipping out Bat Credit Cards.
Even though Gotham doesnt really exist,a realistic apporach was taken to the material.And most will agree that the first 2 were the best(I HATE all of them personally).

Also X-Men and X2 are the beginnings of these characters. Wolverine couldnt have taken too long to go to Canada and back so Id guess the first film and X2 take place within about a months time tops.Again were not talking about years and years of adjusting to their powers and them being at their maximum potential.I think X3 will probally jump further ahead,maybe years.We'll see.


"But when I sit down to see a superhero movie I want to be blown away! People throwing cars, spinning the earth backwards to alter time, and so on."

Again your taking about 2 very different characters here and alot of it just wont work in a film. How could u possibly do Juggernaut in a film with it being obviously CGI? Comic books arent film. They tried to make the Wolverine mask work and couldnt.It looked silly.

When they first started on the first film there was talk of no costumes and even no codenames. While in the mall,Storm says"Wheres Rogue and Iceman"? Now that sounds silly in a movie, but you wouldnt even think about it when reading it in a comic book.

Thats why I love the scene with Magneto and Pyro so much.
"Whats ur name?" "John" "Whats ur real name John?" "...Pyro"
Its beautiful in its simplicity and perfectly illustrates how mutants see themselves and why they use the codenames.

Believe me nothing would make me happier than to see The Thing lean back on Reed Richards,using Reeds elastic body as a slingshot,flinging the Thing in the air and smashing into Galactus who topples on Times Square - but X-men wasnt meant to be that type of book. They were always quiter,darker,more mysterious.A team in the shadows.
Look at the depiction of them in Marvels compared to the Fantastic Four. The Beatles were at Reed and Sues marriage while the X-Men were being spit on and having rocks thrown at them.

You shouldnt and cant appraoch all comic book movies the same way.

Sentinels should be following Mutants on the streets in secrecy,hiding behind tress - not battling mutants on the GW Bridge.I think to have the X-men battling it out with Apocalypse in from of the world would be a betrayal of what the characters are about more than anything Singer has done.Fundamentally thats not what theyre about. You have to think back to basics and what theyre about.

To me Mutants represent outcasts,their humanity and struggle to be accepted.Not smashing shit up.
Thats what The Hulk is for

 

[Stephen_L]

Funny but my expectations in film are completely contrary to those of Luis and some others. Rack up the powers and massive spectacle and it becomes an uninvolving cartoon. Finding some element of human-ness in the superhero, some vulnerability makes them more empathetic and interesting to me. Watching Wolverine dispatch a half dozen guys is cool. Having him tackle fifty (Burly Brawl anyone?) would look silly. If he's so formidible how can I ever fear for his safety? Superman is an interesting example. Having him battle the Krypton refugees was amusing eye candy but hardly involving. Seeing him give up his power for the love of Lois and coping with his humanity was far more interesting.

 

[Patrick Sun]

I think some of the naysayers bring WAY too much baggage to the film.

I think it's important to keep in mind that writers/directors are adapting the source material to create cinematic films. Your version of the characters inside your head doesn't make it THE version that others think should be the cinematic verison of the characters.

If their vision doesn't work for you, that's fine, it's your prerogative to dislike the writing/direction. But there's more than enough happy folks around to keep those creative folks in command of the next installment if they elect to revisit our favorite mutants on the big screen. It's a very hard thing to do: balance keeping the hardcore fans happy (with the convoluted histories of these characters in the comics), and also making the films accessible to newcomers who are not as familiar with the source material.

These films are a commercial enterprise, and if you cater to the hardcore fans only, the films bog down too much, and you get poorly rated reviews by the viewers unfamiliar with the convoluted history of these characters.

Given these basic constraints, I think Singer and company did a good job with X2, and made it an entertaining film for *most* viewers of the film.

 

[Paul_Scott]

yeah.


scale is relative.

when i see vacuous characters running around, navigating thru a plot that doesn't grab me-nothing they do is going to be all that eye-popping incredible.

if i had to choose, i would much prefer the action scaled back but utilizing characters i was invested in.
really identifying with the character makes me feel every punch and blast, as opposed to just passively witnessing it.

that scene that Jon brings up in the jet between Pyro and Magneto is just one more reason, the more i think about this movie, the more i love the hell out of it.

i'm sorry to see you have a problem with the material Luis, but the more time goes by the higher both the X films rise in my estimation.

 

[Jeff_S]

Now explain why Sabretooth was an incoherent growling moron compared to the professional and deadly assassin in the comic? How is a loser like toad able to best Storm? Or why is Wolverine such a wimp in the movies?

My guess is that they changed Sabretooth to be more animalistic to differentiate him from Wolverine (and to make it easier for the non-comic-book audience members to quickly identify with the central character in the first movie, Wolverine).

As for Toad besting Storm, he simply kept her off-balance so she couldn't utilize her much superior firepower. Based on what training they show the X-Men doing at the academy, it isn't hard to imagine that they are trained to use/harness their powers but not specifically to fight people with them. Contrary to that, for any of Magneto's team to be of use to him, they must be able to attack and were probably trained accordingly (or picked because of their predispositions). I'm sure as the movies progress, the X-Men will be shown doing more and more combat training as Magneto/Stryker have proven, they need to be ready to fight.

As to why Wolverine is "not as tough" in the movies, I think that is also to help the audience sympathize with the character. He does feel pain, he does get his ass kicked, but despite that, he still comes back for more.

 

[Luis S]

Jeff,



Oh comon. Want sympathy? Its called good writing. The X-Men movies just don't have it. Wolvie gets his ass kicked so much it almost comedy. Honestly they set him up to be a bad ass and the only people he beats up are normal humans. Big deal,he gets trashed by two second rate female characters. There have been many movies where you feel bad for the hero and what hes been through but he still manages to kick major ass all over the place. One that comes to mind is Riggs in Lethal Weapon. Now that was a tormented character that managed to still be effective. Wolvie just comes off as a big pussy.

Thanks for trying though Jeff I look forward to any other questions you may have. Oh and sorry if I didn't address any one else posts yet. Im an incredibly slow typist and some of the replies have just been way to long for my feeble skills to handle :b Ill try to get to them though.Eventually

Luis S

 

[JonZ]

"Please,here we have one of the lamest mutants ever (Toad) besting two of the most powerful (Storm AND Jean) Thats just plain weak."

How about Northstar(pretty pathetic) catching Storm with a punch and knocking her unconscious in X-Men #121

Luis,Care to comment on anything from my last 2 posts?

 

[Robin Warren]

Reading this thread is getting to the point were I need a mouthguard to stop my teeth from grinding.

I have to respectfully disagree with Luis in regards to his wishes for these movies. He is calling for a movie that would cost hundreds of millions to make and have absolutely little chance to draw in the huge numbers needed for these blockbuster movies.

It shows that he just went thru the comics after he got the job,versus someone who knows the material because they were always a fan. Next..

Do you know this to be true or is this just an off hand remark? From what I have heard of Singer he was and is a fan of the book from way back. And enough of the rolling eyes and casual flippant remarks please. Everyone is respectful of your opinions but you don't seem to regard others with quite the same tact.

 

[Ricardo C]

Singer is indeed a new fan, having only gotten into the books after getting the directorial gig.

But that's the only part of Luis' post that I can even remotely agree with

 

[MikeKaz]

Luis go rent a big movie theater and get some popcorn and watch all five seasons of the X-Men cartoon series in the dark. Wolverine fights ok in those.

 

[Robin Warren]

Thanks Ricardo, I must be getting Singer and Rami confused

 

[Jeff_S]

Luis:

Oh comon. Want sympathy? Its called good writing. The X-Men movies just don't have it. Wolvie gets his ass kicked so much it almost comedy. Honestly they set him up to be a bad ass and the only people he beats up are normal humans. Big deal,he gets trashed by two second rate female characters. There have been many movies where you feel bad for the hero and what hes been through but he still manages to kick major ass all over the place. One that comes to mind is Riggs in Lethal Weapon. Now that was a tormented character that managed to still be effective. Wolvie just comes off as a big pussy.

As I said above with Toad/Storm/Jean, the power levels of the characters are different in the movies than the comics. It's funny that you bring up Riggs from the Lethal Weapon movie. You might want to re-watch the movies. In every movie, Riggs takes an incredible amount of punishment (without a healing factor, mind you) but in the end, he ends up winning (barely). Sounds alot like Wolverine in the X-Men movies to me.

 

[Luis S]

Wow! Sorry if some of you guys are taking this so seriously. I think you ought to read up from the begining of this thread and realize Im just having some fun here. Dont make it personal. Hell me, Alex ,JonZ and a few others have been going at it endlessly. Ive been quite forgiving of many changes in the movie, just not those that serve no greater purpose.

Anyhow sorry if I havent addressed some of your posts yet but I do plan to. Ive been pretty tied up today (Been helping my dad fix his truck) And tomorrow I start a new job(see the "anyone work for circuit city?" thread in after hours) So tonight Im gonna spend some time with my lady. But I promise to come back and ruffle a few more feathers tomorrow. Till then take care everybady and Ill see you soon!

Later,

Luis S

 

[Stephen_L]

Here's a little basic of storytelling. Watching two mismatched fighters go at it is boring. A mega powerful Wolverine windmilling his way through dozens of enemies effortlessly is just not interesting. (Sadly much like Neo in Matrix Reloaded) If he's that powerful I can't empathize with him, fear for him, share the exhilaration of triumph if it comes effortlessly. It is always better in a story for combatants to be evenly matched. That keeps the ending of the fight in doubt and forces both combatants to give their best effort. Having the 101st Airborne wipe out Xavier's school might keep the pyrotechnisions employed but is dramatically uninteresting compared to the symmetrical combat of equally matched soldiers and mutants. In the end the movie must tell an involving and believable story.

 

[Sean Laughter]

If perusing video game forums has taught me anything, it is to disregard posters that make condescending remarks and belittle others' opinions . . . and then try to use the "I'm kidding" fix-all along with alot of smilies to make it seem like they're being sarcastic in an attempt to get away with it.

In other news. Who did the FX work for X2? If Beast is in the next one I think I'd like to see WETA take a jab at the next film after their work with Gollum.

 

[Luis S]

Double post

 

[Luis S]

Sean Laughter,

Saying



is an insult to me. I can only do so much on a forum to give people an idea of what I'm about. I am kidding with everybody and I have been from the beginning but I've said nothing to insult or offend anyone. Not intentionally anyhow. I think in this thread if you read from the begining you'll get a good idea that while I may shoot down a couple people's opinions of the subject at hand it has all been in the spirit of fun. From the getgo I've had tongue planted firmly in cheek.

Don't compare me to obsessive video game fans. Unlike most of them I have presented in my OPINION pretty solid arguments. Nowhere in my posts have I said anything to the effect of "X-Men blows...Matrix rules!!" or some such nonsense. Every point I've argued I felt I had good reason to or at the very least the ability to back it up. Most of us have been having a pretty good time here. Only a few have actually managed to get a bit upset. I wonder if they are more unwilling to accept critisism of their movie than I am willing to accept the changes made in it. I think If I were truly some whacked out fan boy a mod would have alerted me to my behavior a while ago.

I'm sorry if you and any others have taken offense but I must suggest that you reread the thread to see that I'm just having a good time with a few of the other members, busting each others chops. And my smilies aren't a way of getting away with anything. I'm just a happy guy

And lastly I haven't forgotten about you other guys. I will get back to you and drive you crazy some more, but I just got back from work and I'm pretty beat so I'll probably post tomorrow, maybe late tonight but most likely tomorrow.

Take care,

Luis S

 

[John Doran]

Here's a little basic of storytelling. Watching two mismatched fighters go at it is boring. A mega powerful Wolverine windmilling his way through dozens of enemies effortlessly is just not interesting.

right. which is precisely why any "windmilling" that is done by wolverine in the comics, when done against human foes (e.g the Hand), is done against dozens of them, and why he gets shot and sliced and stabbed and bruised - because the only way wolverine could ever need to exert an effort against and be matched by humans, is if there's lots of them and they have weapons.

if what you really mean is that you cannot enjoy movies unless the life of the protagonist is actually on the line with each conflict, then all i can say is that you must find almost all books and movies emotionally uninvolving.

incidentally, your concern for "matching" is exactly why i think movies about superheroes should primarily pit them against supervillains - so they can unload on one another in more closely "matched" combat; it's just not realistic to accept the basic premise of super-powered humans but then expect them to have difficulty in combat with unpowered humans unless those putative regular humans make up for their lack of power either in numbers or hardware.

- jd

 

[John Doran]

If perusing video game forums has taught me anything, it is to disregard posters that make condescending remarks and belittle others' opinions . . . and then try to use the "I'm kidding" fix-all along with alot of smilies to make it seem like they're being sarcastic in an attempt to get away with it.

well, if there's anything i've learned from perusing any forum, is that there's always gonna be a stick-in-the-mud who just doesn't get it.

and i wish i was kidding.