Would you buy a DTS-only DVD movie over a DD one? (1 Viewer)

[Dave Moritz]

Hello Terrell
"David, I'd beg to differ because that statement is completely not true. And I can't help but laugh, because you say "okay DD tracks." TPM DD EX track is one of the best surround tracks on any DVD, period. Or either your system is not calibrated correctly, because practically anyone that owns it will tell you the same thing. It's flat out jawdropping."
I do not agree with the statement that TPM DD track is jawdropping. The special effects visually are jawdropping, but the DD track. I will be honest I do not care for Dolby Digital at all! I prefer to listen to Star Wars 4 - 6 in Prologic accually. DD uses to much compression and not enough data to recreate the audio. I think of DD as low quality digital surround. I have yet to hear anything in the DD / DD-EX format to make my jaw drop open. My receiver is calibrated correctly and there isnt a DD track that has impressed me yet. I may stand corrected someday but for know. I stick to my guns and my statement. Heck even Dolby does not deny the fact that DD has a lower data rate and more compression than DTS! You can only compress audio so much before it is affected. And you can only take out so much of the overlaping frequencies before it is audible when compaired to other formats. We all buy what we like for you and others its DD, and for myself and others its DTS.

 

[Terrell]

Usually i don't buy into the bitrate hype in both DD and DTS. I am impressed through quality, not numbers. 2 of my personal favorite soundtracks: Toy Story 2 (DD) and Saving Private Ryan (DTS) are at the corresponding lower bitrates of the corresponding codecs. I have seen as many high bitrate soundtracks that sucked, as i have seen low bitrate tracks that rocked, so bitrate can't have more than a marginal difference at best.

http://home.t-online.de/home/bjoern....TPM/TPM_01.htm
Now, this guy is a tech hound. Knows more than I will ever know. David, it's okay to like DTS. I love many DTS soundtracks. But you've totally and completely bought into DTS' marketing which states since we're not as compressed, we have to be better, always. That's pure nonsense, and they know it.
I'd also recommend reading the double blind test conducted between DD and DTS in a previous issue of Home Theater magazine. The results were surprising. I'll see if I can find the issue.
By the way, isn't this discussion happening in two threads?

 

[Dave Moritz]

I realize you enjoy DD Terrell and this is not about DTS jargin.
"More DTS marketing BS. And if you think the the bit-rate is all that matters, I'd suggest studying up a bit more. Yes, the Toy Story 2 DD track and TPM and FOTR DD-EX tracks are superior to a number of DTS tracks, even though they're at lower bit-rate. All 3 of these DD tracks are superior to the DTS track on the Jurassic Park DVD."
This is so not true Terrell bit rate may not be everything but it is part of the entire sound. And by saying DD is a lower quality format is the truth. Jurassic Park in DTS is way supperior to the DD track. You really have not shown in any way that DD is better that DTS. Here is a statement copied from a movie review on this site.
"Anyone who says that DTS is no better than DD ought to
listen to both tracks on this DVD. Upon switching
to DTS, I immediately heard a more spacious sound
environment. The smallest sounds of the Dolby
Digital track now become far more distinct with
a greater sense of direction."
Ronald Epstein
I could not have said it better than Ron did. That is one of the biggest differences between DD and DTS. DTS is more natural sounding, crisper, tracks have a greater sense of direction and do not sound conpressed or muffled. SACD has more depth and detail over standard CD because there is more information to reproduce the waveform. Just like in DTS vs DD the more bits and or data with less compression you have the more detail and sense of space you will get. You can hear it when you listen to it. The SW 4-6 I was refering to was not DVD but was widescreen laserdisc. I have no doubt that any bootleg would be substandard to a studio release. I doubt there is a DD track on earth that can beat a DTS track properly done. And for sure DTS laserdiscs sound better that there DD counterparts. You and I can only agree to disagee on this subject. I however see no logic in you arument that DD is better than DTS. Forget DTS whitepapers or their web site. In the real world DTS is better

 

[Rob Gillespie]

You guys should really stop quoting bitrates. Dolby and DTS use different encoding algorithms, therefore comparing the two and saying one has a 'higher' or 'lower' bitrate is simplifying the issue way too much, almost to the point of being utterly redundant.
Dolby's maximum bitrate for home use is 448kbps. DTS is 1500-something. Both claim that at these rates the soundtracks are transparent to the original.
The vast majority of DTS soundtracks available on DVD run at the half-rate of 750-something, however nearly all 5.1 Dolby tracks now run at 448. So what you have, is one system running at it's full capacity and the other running at half capacity. Now the bitrate argument falls apart.
Don't get me wrong. I have long been a DTS fan (for longer than I've been a member here), but these arguments over bitrates are pointless and counterproductive. DTS on DVD is NOT like it used to be on LaserDisc, where it was treated as an audiophile product.
DTS may well provide superior audio in some instances, but Dave, you must understand that the DTS tracks cited as being so wonderful (Private Ryan, Gladiator, Jurassic Park to name three) were encoded from a different source that was prepared especially. Had they came from the same master the differences would become tiny, almost not there at all. We know this because Twister was done in this way and there really isn't much between the Dolby and DTS tracks on that disc at all, if anything.
It's more to do with the mix than the codec.

 

[Dan Brecher]

You know what's funny is when I made the leap into high end seperates, the difference was even less distinctive in a number of tracks sourced from the same master because I found my new components were doing Dolby better than I had ever heard it before. This was very much the opposite I expected at the time...

I carry much the same feelings as Rob, and see a lot of people using the bitrate argument, but it just doesn't make for solid grounds for defence of DTS..

...the DD tracks on the special edition box set are the best on any of the Star Wars LDs, and yes it's better than the Pro Logic tracks.

Actually many of us with both would not agree.

You're kind of falling into a trap there, much like the DTS must be better than DD debate in saying that the 5.1 must be better than the pro logic.

There's a factor of the SEs mixes that is a certain "hey, star wars in 5.1" factor, and those mixing it new that too as the 5.1 on each movie literally screams "hey, look what we can do with LFE, we're going to put it everywhere!"... It suffers as Phantom Menace's mix suffers, in that they tried to cram in every kind of discrete effect they could. Where as TPM went over the top playing out every split surround trick in the book, the SEs just made stupid use of LFE and made for very uneven sounding mixes.

In proper comparison (again not just switching between the two), the Pro Logic mixes are actually better, there is a stronger consistency in the mastering and they don't suffer from some of the god awful new sound effects mastering the SE mixes carry.

I kind of put it down to the same kind of issue where people praise a DVD transfer and actually forget that the source material, the cinemtography plays a big part. If the film looked good at source, it's rarely going to look bad come time of the DVD transfer.

Same kind of deal with sound, if a mix like TPM just uses every trick in the book, many people are going to love it because it gives their HT a real good work out. You're really not meant to notice that there is so much going on in the channels on the best of mixes... A good mix will contribute to the telling of the story, and TPMs does, but not without drawing immediate attention to the mix which it really should not do. Its for that reason that I remain glad it did not pick up the sound and sound effects editing oscar. The proof is right there in the fact that the mix is what most are alerted to everytime they spin the disc, and in many cases, is all those who own the LD or DVD even cared about really buying it for.

Even Gary Rydstrom felt TPM was too over the top eventually, and subsequently AOTCs mix was much better and more even sounding instead of just loud and "whoa hey, look and listen to what we can do!" which kind of sums up TPM and the SE trilogy as movies entirely I guess.

Dan

 

[Jeremy Anderson]

I won't get into the whole bitrate argument because that's been covered -- two different codecs, two different standards, both lossy algorithms. But I will say this:

I find that I usually prefer the DTS track to the DD when given both options, so if there is a DTS-only version of a disc (like Jurassic Park, The Haunting, Saving Private Ryan, etc.) I will usually get that one, extras be damned. My reasons, however are less technical:
1) DTS doesn't use dialogue normalization. Let's not start a debate on this -- it's just my preference.
2) DTS rolls off frequencies at a different range than DD, which normally sounds better with my particular speakers. A good example of this is THE LAST CASTLE. The same master for both DD and half-rate DTS tracks, but the DTS -seems- more spacious on my gear because of the different frequency rolloff. Note that I said "on my gear."

I'm not evangelizing DTS in any way, because I've heard tracks from both Dolby and DTS that are exceptional. I've also heard some really bad DTS tracks in my time. Regardless, it's always a crapshoot which one will sound better given any particular set of gear.

 

[Rob Gillespie]

For DVD, certainly sir. However D-VHS carries a 576kbps DD rate...

Yeah, but that's probably to allow for the amount of information lost after several passes over the tape heads

 

[Clinton McClure]

I buy whichever copy sounds better to me, although it's usually the DTS.

 

[jacob w k]

Don't have a DTS decoder on my receiver so the answer is easy. I would not sacrifice extras however for a maginally better DTS track, much rather have a commentary or two.

 

[Raine Linton]

At this point I would buy a DTS disk over a DD disk. I've had DD only for the two years I've had my theater and two weeks ago I was able to a/b the two formats. Needless to say I've upgraded and lovin' every minute of it.
Raine

 

[Dave Moritz]

I really do not mind dvd's coming with both DD and DTS on the same disc. But like I have said, just give us the choice on how we play the movie back. I have about 77 titles on dvd but at least half are DTS titles. The other dvd that are not DTS are only because that was the only thing available. And I realize this is proubly another thread. But I am kinda suprised with the fact that with all the formats Sony has introduced. Beta, mini-disc,sacd and for the theater SDDS. And the fact that Sony owns a motion picture studio. That they did not try a bring out SDDS for home use. But may just be another can of worms, lol. SDDS claimed better db's but it to IMHO was not better than DTS ether. I like the DTS, it sounds crisper and sounds more spacious and not as compressed. Anyway I do not see this argument going away anytime soon.

So I leave you with this last line referanced at DD " You can't pollish a terd" (Christine)

 

[TonyTone]

Okay, I guess some DTS-soundtrack movie DVDs sound better than their DD counterparts due to remixing (Saving Private Ryan, Jurassic Park), and that not all DTS-DD comparisons are equal. Having said that, what DTS-only movie DVDs would be worth buying over (or in addition to, for you DD fanatics) their DD-only counterparts just for their sound (e.g, Private Ryan and JP)?

And to somewhat clarify my stance on the DD vs. DTS issue--I wasn't trying to imply that I would always buy a DTS-only DVD over a DD one, but that based on discerning observations (subjective, for the most part) from trade mags and more than a few people on this forum, some movies (again, using "Saving Private Ryan" as a prime example) are better listened to in DTS, and that since "Private Ryan" comes in separate DD and DTS issues, the DTS version would be the better buy, extra features notwithstanding.

As I stated in my initial post in this thread, I am tempted to buy the DTS version of JP, but am hedging a bit because it is missing a few bonus features that the DD version has--I think the DTS version doesn't have the Phil Tippett animatronic feature, IIRC, but I may be wrong on this part. However, I do know that the DTS version is missing two extras, perhaps because there was not enough room on the DVD due to the amount of space taken up by the DTS soundtrack? I would probably buy the DTS version of JP if the price is right, however...

 

[Jeff_HR]

If I felt that the soundtrack & sound effects merited it.

 

[Kami]

I'm still baffled ovr Twister though. 448Kbps Dolby and 1500Kbps DTS on the same disc and they basically sound the SAME.

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

Tony,
I realize that isn't what you were implying, but you struck me as being new to this and I just wanted to try and save you before THEY got to you first.
Dave,
you sound like an intelligent guy, which is why i'm so surprised at some of the absurd things your saying about DD. Let me ask you this, what equipment are you using? I only ask because I know that my reciever sometimes treats certain DD tracks strangly, they sound too compressed, but on my freinds set-up they sound incredible. So it is possible for the equipment to have some sort of decoding problem that can give you false results.
Barring any problems with your set-up, calibration issues, environmental constraints and acoustical problems such as too much padded and soft material in your listening room, even hearing difficulties, their is no reason why DD should sound as bad as your making it out to be at all.
I must be honest here, if you find the DD tracks on SW EP1 and Toy Story 2 to be just "ok", your listening standards are waaaay too high. I've heard some people having finicky ears before, but you take the cake.
I started a thread a couple of years ago called, get this, Case Closed! DTS buries DD!, some of you may remember it :b, let me just say it got ugly...really ugly and leave it at that alright . Anyway I was led to believe that because my reciever wasn't treating DTS tracks the same way as DD ones, so my reciever was leading me to believe that DTS was ALWAYS better than DD. But it was a lie, my reciever tricked me into thinking this, but the more I read and the more I learned, the more open I became on the subject until I finally reached the point i'm at now. Just give me a decent audio track.

 

[Dave Moritz]

Hey TonyTone
You can get really good prices online on DVD Planet.
www.dvdplanet.com
Jurassic Park SE widescreen / DTS $20.24
Jurassic Park SE widescreen / DD $20.24
Jurassic Park 3 SE sidescreen / DD & DTS $20.24
Jurassic Park - Lost World SE widescreen / DTS $20.24
Jurassic Park - Lost World SE widescreen / DD $20.24
They are located here in So. Cal but take telephone orders and internet orders and they have some of the best prices and a big selection.

 

[JohnRice]

There is only one title I have sold (The Fifth Element) to get a DTS copy. Of course, I gave up whatever supplements the original had. There is only one title I have (Saving Private Ryan) where there were two versions at the time I bought it. I got the DTS. I expect the whole data rate thing is mostly misunderstood. As I understand it, a fair amount of the data rate in DTS involves info to tell the decoder how to decode the signal, and that this is not the case with DD. So direct comparisons of data rate are pointless. I think I do often hear more channel separation in the surrounds of a DTS track. A nice, but not huge factor.
Any slight doubts about the capabilities of DD I may have had were shattered to bits when I saw Resident Evil last week, in DD. That was as amazing as any soundtrack I have ever heard.

 

[Terrell]

There's a factor of the SEs mixes that is a certain "hey, star wars in 5.1" factor, and those mixing it new that too as the 5.1 on each movie literally screams "hey, look what we can do with LFE, we're going to put it everywhere!"... It suffers as Phantom Menace's mix suffers, in that they tried to cram in every kind of discrete effect they could. Where as TPM went over the top playing out every split surround trick in the book, the SEs just made stupid use of LFE and made for very uneven sounding mixes.

Well Dan, I think you're getting into the quality of the mix rather than the fidelity of the surround track. You may be correct that the Pro-Logic track on the Definitive Collection is a more balanced mix. It is also a damn good mix and an impressive Pro-Logic track. But where fidelity of the soundtrack is concerned, the DD track on the SE box set is better, has better fidelity and better bass extension. At least that was the conclusion I came to when comparing my two box sets.
I'm in favor of re-recording the soundtrack for Star Wars, because the surround track on the DC box set sounds so thin compared to ESB and ROTJ. Not to mention it lacks the bass and fullness present in the ESB and ROTJ tracks. Obviously, the original soundtrack source for the film has taken a beating over the years. I say re-record it exactly as it is. Take John Williams and the LSO and record it again.

 

[Dave Moritz]

Hey John
I am a picky listener but I feel I helps me to strive to have the best sound I can get. I realize that sometimes a processor may have a flaw in it and a format may not sound quite right on a paticular brand or model for some reason. But I do not believe that this is a problem with most recievers. I have heard DD tracks on everything from Pioneer Elite to Theta Digital to Onkyo to Sony recievers and pre/pros. I have yet to be impressed by a DD track on any movie. I only end up with DD tracks because of lack of options. I use to own a McIntosh MX-130 so I was kinda spoiled with that peice :b but it was not 5.1. I currently have a Yamaha RX-V995 reciever with both DD and DTS built in. My main stereo channel is wired to a set of Altec Lancing Voice Of The Theater cabnets. I have a Polk Audio CS100 that I plan on replacing with a Klipcsh center with dual 8's if I can still get them. If I get a Sony digital front projector I may just build my own center with dual jbl 10's and a compact horn. The DD tracks ether just sound compressed over all or the center sounds muddy and subdued. My Yamaha has multiple sound fields tweeked for different movies and in DD it does not make enough of a differance to help. On the other hand DTS in just plan DTS surround settings sound more vivrent and spacious. My next reciever upgrade may be the Pioneer Elite 49TX, Denon 5803 or the new Sunfire pre/pro Theater3? As long as it has discrete DTS-ES I will be happy. I could care less if Dolby Digtal-EX as included or if it failed and stopped working I would not bother to get it fixed. I would just use the THX-EX for Dolby material. I guess I am just very opionated and sound for me is very important. With my main speakers it is easier to hear differances in formats. For example my high frequency driver are Rhiken Heinz that are in the neighborhood of 114db efficient. This has a tendancy to emphisise sources that sound really flat or compressed when compaired to other sources that have a more open and dynamic sound. And as far as SW 1 & 2 goes since Lucas is good friends with Ray Dolby and Lucas was involved with DD-EX. I do not see it coming out in DTS. And I do not see DD being better just because Lucas chooses to back it. I do not see Speilburg backing DD only, he has been including DTS as well and I give Speilburg a huge . I enjoy Star Wars and can not wait to see what the do for episode 3 . But I prefere DTS and have even turned a movie off in DD after about 20 minutes into the movie. This is why I am kinda glad D-VHS will not see the light of day as a mainstream format. Because DD will be the only surround choice we will have. And I do not believe that its higher bit rate will help DD. Just out of curiosity John what reviever or pre/pro do you use??

 

[Dave Moritz]

Sorry, should have typed Receiver :b , that is what happens when I type to fast and do not proof read it first.