Wizard of Oz in blu ray - Wire Removal ?? (1 Viewer)

[WilliamMcK]

Removing information from the original source is a no-no. Better?

 

[bryan4999]

Is removing the wires really altering someone's work? What was the film maker's intent? This was an issue with MARY POPPINS, also, and I think Walt Disney's intent would have been that we believe the magic and not see the wires. The fact that the more limited technology of 1964 betrayed his intent to some degree doesn't change his intent that we believe it. Surely, Mervyn LeRoy and company wanted us to believe that The Lion was wagging his own tail. So perhaps it can be argued that removing the wires is actually preserving the filmakers' intent, especially in this age of ultra resolution scanning.

 

[WilliamMcK]

Is removing the wires really altering someone's work?

Yes, it is.

 

[Doctorossi]

Removing information from the original source is a no-no. Better?

The philosophical problem remains, as "adding" information (by presenting the film at a significantly higher resolution) alters the image, as well.

 

[Doctorossi]

Yes, it is.

If the wires were truly invisible on the original prints, it would be altering the work to allow them to be seen on the Blu-ray.

 

[bryan4999]

Yes, it is.

So are you implying that it was the filmakers wish that we see the wires, or was it a result of the technology of the time?

 

[WilliamMcK]

I'm implying that I couldn't possibly know what the intentions of the filmmakers were in 1939... and that I personally dislike having 1939 works of art made to look like they've been made in the 21st century.

 

[Worth]

The "technology of the time" argument is a very slippery slope, as it easily leads to the Lucasesque bastardization of films. Most black and white movies would have been shot in colour, most mono films would have been mixed in stereo, and so on, had technology and money allowed it.
Things like wire removal, re-compositing opticals, etc. fall into something of a grey area. Personally, I'm okay with it, especially if it's something that would have been obscured on a release print, but overall, I'd rather just see the film as it was made - I kind of miss seeing the cobra reflection in Raiders.

 

[TonyD]

The should we or should we see the wires discussion AGAIN. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[Paul Penna]

But whether they showed or not, altering others' work is always a no-no in my book.

By the same logic, the wires being rendered invisible by the print-making process in use at the time would also be "altering others' work."

 

[haineshisway]

Someone a couple of years ago in this thread made the correct point - no one was looking for these things back in 1939. They were watching a movie and involved in the movie. You don't notice because you're involved in the character and the tail wagging is not the focal point. Visible/not visible - no one was looking for it. That happened much later.

 

[Doctorossi]

The should we or should we see the wires discussion AGAIN. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

There are other threads...

 

[Stan]

OMG, they used wires in the Wizard of Oz?
Should have used spoilers with this thread, you've ruined my childhood memories.
I actually thought the monkey-guys could fly and the Cowardly Lion could wag his own tail.
At least the Wicked Witch did her own flying. Can't take that one away from me.

 

[Doctorossi]

no one was looking for these things back in 1939

That's a slippery slope, as well, when you start guesstimating how other viewers may have interpreted what they saw.

 

[WilliamMcK]

By the same logic, the wires being rendered invisible by the print-making process in use at the time would also be "altering others' work."

The key words here are "at the time." What was done "at the time" was part of a collaborative effort to create THE WIZARD OF OZ. Guys, I only chimed in here because I think our cultural heritage shouldn't be tampered with (or tampered with as little as possible -- transferring movies shot on film to any other format would obviously count as "tampering"). But the Blu-Ray is out, what's done is done. It's a fine looking rendition of the movie... I just wish it hadn't been altered... but I'm fully aware that this isn't the equivalent to colorizing LA GRANDE ILLUSION. But I maintain my stance that it is a bad thing to change movies because of advancements in technology (I prefer original mono tracks too!).

 

[Doctorossi]

What was done "at the time" was part of a collaborative effort to create THE WIZARD OF OZ.

And part of that collaborative effort was the preparation of practical effects by professionals who were very aware of what would and would not appear on the cinema screen. To defeat the product of their collective wisdom could also be seen as an affront to their cultural legacy.
There's no simple and absolute answer here.

 

[haineshisway]

That's a slippery slope, as well, when you start guesstimating how other viewers may have interpreted what they saw.

There's no slippery slope, sorry. Others have pointed it out and so am I - audiences of the day were not looking for these things. I don't happen to think that's guesstimating at all. I saw the film in the 1950s and I certainly wasn't looking for it and hence didn't see it. I didn't see it, in fact, until the home video era. That's one of the reasons I think Hollywood has totally shot itself in the foot, with all these ridiculous extras on DVD and Blu-ray, where every trick is revealed. There is simply no movie magic left because everyone knows everything. I refer you to the words "movie magic" when those word actually had some meaning, and they certainly had meaning in 1939.

 

[rich_d]

My favorite scene in BE KIND REWIND (2008) is a scene where adults and children alike are mesmerized by the story unfolding before them. Even though the video is projected on a bed-sheet, even with amateurish acting and special effects.
That resonates with me, because, first and foremost, it's always about the story. Yet we live in a world of kids growing up watching hi-def and beautiful Pixar films and the like. If the studio believes that the removal of wires can help future generations of kids to continue to be mesmerized by The Wizard of Oz, I'm not going to throw rocks at their door.

 

[Doctorossi]

There's no slippery slope, sorry. Others have pointed it out and so am I - audiences of the day were not looking for these things.

I wish I could feel so confident in speaking for all cinema-goers of 1939, but I fear your confidence is misplaced.

 

[bryan4999]

The should we or should we see the wires discussion AGAIN. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I apologize, I haven't been around here as long as some of you all and hadn't read all of the previous threads. It is a philosophical question that picqued my interest, and I had not ever had the chance to discuss it with anyone. As has been said, there is no single, simple answer, and I am sure it will continue to come up as more vintage films are prepared for blu-ray.