Will We Ever See 1776 on Blu-ray? (See Post #286 for the latest info from Sony) (1 Viewer)

[Moe Dickstein]

I understand that sentiment, but it just seems interesting to me that people would go to the lengths of boycotting an official release because it lacks what is essentially a bonus feature. But to each their own.

 

[Matt Hough]

The show was a magnificent stage experience, and for me the film replicated much that the stage version offered including so many from either the original or replacement casts.

Unlike others, I adore Blythe Danner's Martha Jefferson making her the delicate, soft-spoken creature she apparently was in real-life, and "He Plays the Violin" in my favorite number in the film apart from "Molasses to Rum."

 

[bryan4999]

I will buy a blu-ray if they release one, however I am in the laserdisc camp. I remember seeing this on Broadway in the 1970s. It was electrifying.

"Full-bosomed, Benji!"

I want the full-bosomed cut!

 

[Jack P]

I understand that sentiment, but it just seems interesting to me that people would go to the lengths of boycotting an official release because it lacks what is essentially a bonus feature. But to each their own.

Because the 1991 cut is for us, the "standard cut". That's what we have watched for 20 years now and there is no point in changing that for the sake of appeasing someone who consistently refuses to understand why the LD cut has special meaning for many people. If two versions of the film were released to co-exist side by side with the LD cut material in full (that means Overture/Entr'acte, complete "Piddle" and the original underscore for the John-Abigail scene prior to "Compliments" as well as the original underscore for Franklin's intro and not the replacement cue that works against the piece) then that would be something I'd gladly accept. But if only the personal vanity cut of Peter Hunt is allowed and a supposed "kitchen sink" version is not presented with all the LD material intact in the film itself, then I will not buy it and I will keep deriving the same enjoyment every July 4 from the LD version which all things considered, isn't so bad.

 

[bujaki]

Not adding fuel to the controversy of two cuts. Just want to say that I have seen Blythe Danner on stage and in films, and that she is anything but dull in either medium. Watch her riveting, subtle performance in The Great Santini, for instance. I saw her on stage, for instance, in Pinter's Betrayal, and in a comedy, The New York Idea, where her comic timing was impeccable.
As to my favorite numbers in the play/film 1776, they are "Molasses to Rum," but particularly, and most appropriate to today, "Cool, Considerate Men." No wonder Nixon wanted, and succeeded, in getting it cut!

 

[Jack P]

I've never bought the Nixon story, to be honest. There's never been any documentation to suggest there was some White House directive to do so, and only the fact that Jack Warner himself was skittish about the number from the get-go. Which IMO was rather foolish because the genius of "1776" is how it really is ultimately a film that reflects the diverse ideological viewpoints in favor of American independence at the time (after all, for some people the Revolution is a case of the citizenry objecting to the intrusive interference of the central government in the lives of the ordinary citizen with issuing compulsive taxes on them without their consent) and can be embraced by conservatives and liberals alike. About the only serious historical distortion of the work is that John Dickinson was not a knee-jerk defender of British policy, but rather an early critic of British policy who feared that independence would remove the one common tie that held the 13 colonies together (their sense of being British subjects) and ultimately lead to 13 separate countries at war with each other. Also, Dickinson ultimately abstained from the final vote when he saw the trend was in favor of independence. I do accept the necessity of making Dickinson a counterpoint villain of the piece to Adams for dramatic purpose and they at least allow recognition of the fact that Dickinson did go on to fight heroically for the Americans in the war.

 

[haineshisway]

Because the 1991 cut is for us, the "standard cut". That's what we have watched for 20 years now and there is no point in changing that for the sake of appeasing someone who consistently refuses to understand why the LD cut has special meaning for many people. If two versions of the film were released to co-exist side by side with the LD cut material in full (that means Overture/Entr'acte, complete "Piddle" and the original underscore for the John-Abigail scene prior to "Compliments" as well as the original underscore for Franklin's intro and not the replacement cue that works against the piece) then that would be something I'd gladly accept. But if only the personal vanity cut of Peter Hunt is allowed and a supposed "kitchen sink" version is not presented with all the LD material intact in the film itself, then I will not buy it and I will keep deriving the same enjoyment every July 4 from the LD version which all things considered, isn't so bad.

Really? All these people who want it to be just like what they saw on the stage - but that's not enough - they also want an overture that NEVER was intended for the film OR even put together for the film at ANY time and that is vastly different from the prelude to the stage version, and they want an entr'acte that never existed for the stage version because there was no intermission in the stage version. I'm sure Mr. Hunt's problem, other than being the director of both stage and film versions, is that he cannot win - I'm quite sure that neither he nor anyone at Sony want to use trims that are awful and faded and in bad shape, for which no negative exists, in the middle of what I'm sure would be a beautiful Blu-ray. I'm sure that's easy to understand. But, it's HIS film, not yours - so you watch the laserdisc and be happy. IF he were to do a version such as Mad World, there will still be complainers because they'll want wrong takes and the whole load of laundry. Sorry, don't want that for ANY film because 90% of the film masterpieces of cinema would be ruined by the inclusion of stuff the director decided needed to go for very good and specific reasons. Perhaps when you make a film and make those decisions and put out what YOU want in your film only to have a bunch of people say "I don't care what you want, WE want this other version and you can take a flying leap whether you like it or not." I'm sure that would just please you so much. But you're not a filmmaker and it hasn't happened to you so there's that.

 

[Jack P]

Simply wanting the 1991 LD cut in full is not a crime, and if that is how some of us choose to base our decisions on how we choose to spend our money, that is our prerogative. Just as there are also many of us who won't buy any Blu-Rays of the SW trilogy until they include the original cuts.

I was able to enjoy "1776" for a good many years by appreciating the work put into it by *all* the people involved, and not as some people would evidently prefer to believe, that only one person was responsible for the end product.

 

[bryan4999]

Really? All these people who want it to be just like what they saw on the stage - but that's not enough - they also want an overture that NEVER was intended for the film OR even put together for the film at ANY time and that is vastly different from the prelude to the stage version, and they want an entr'acte that never existed for the stage version because there was no intermission in the stage version. I'm sure Mr. Hunt's problem, other than being the director of both stage and film versions, is that he cannot win - I'm quite sure that neither he nor anyone at Sony want to use trims that are awful and faded and in bad shape, for which no negative exists, in the middle of what I'm sure would be a beautiful Blu-ray. I'm sure that's easy to understand. But, it's HIS film, not yours - so you watch the laserdisc and be happy. IF he were to do a version such as Mad World, there will still be complainers because they'll want wrong takes and the whole load of laundry. Sorry, don't want that for ANY film because 90% of the film masterpieces of cinema would be ruined by the inclusion of stuff the director decided needed to go for very good and specific reasons. Perhaps when you make a film and make those decisions and put out what YOU want in your film only to have a bunch of people say "I don't care what you want, WE want this other version and you can take a flying leap whether you like it or not." I'm sure that would just please you so much. But you're not a filmmaker and it hasn't happened to you so there's that.

You're absolutely right. It's Mr. Hunt's movie and he can do what he likes to the extent his arrangement with Sony allows. But that doesn't mean I have to open my wallet and buy it. If that's what you mean by "flying leap", then, yeah he can take a bloody flying leap. And it doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about it, either. As to the statement about 90% of other movies, there are differences here and one is that Mr. Hunt was very aware of the laserdisc - in fact he wrote liner notes saying "I am extremely happy to have 1776 at last intact thanks to Pioneer LDCA... So, here it is, the complete, uncut, full-screen, stereo 1776." Was he under duress in writing that? If Pioneer and Columbia ran amok in 1991 adding the "whole load of laundry", why did he endorse it with glowing liner notes? He even did an enthusiastic commentary track as it unspooled. And 90% of other movies weren't cut after release against the director's wishes, that has only happened to a small percentage of films overall. I believed for years, until the 1776 DVD was released, that the laserdisc was indeed Mr. Hunts' preferred cut. Why wouldn't I with his endorsement on the liner notes? Anyway, I will shut up now and go 'watch my laserdisc and be happy".

 

[Steve...O]

I also love Blythe Danner in 1776. "He Plays the Violin" has always been my favorite song from the film and the sequence built around it is my favorite part of the film. "Mama Look Sharp" and "But Mr. Adams" are also standouts.

If Sony is unable to bring this to BD, I hope Twilight Time will get the opportunity as I know they will do a superb job. 'til then, the DVD remains a favorite and gets played every July.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

The Nixon story is 100% true. It's been researched and stated in documenataries about Presidents viewing films. Warner himself told the story many times and listed it as a major regret on his deathbed.There are logs at the White House as to when the film was screened, the meeting with Warner and then the dates back in LA of the trims. It's all fact.Jack, you know full well that the additional music is illegal to be re-inserted, we've trod this ground many times and so I fear that no version that is possible to create would appease you.Hunt has no problem with an alternate version of the film being presented alongside the director's cut of the film, so there's no use to hold him up as the bad guy here. The only thing now is to hope that if a Blu-Ray gets made that the time/money are there to create that other version. If not, it may be a case of the official cut being preserved and presented, but I feel that many of us, while preferring to have both cuts, would rather have at least the Director's cut from a 4k scan and looking as good as we have come to expect from Mr. Crisp and his talented team.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

You're absolutely right. It's Mr. Hunt's movie and he can do what he likes to the extent his arrangement with Sony allows. But that doesn't mean I have to open my wallet and buy it. If that's what you mean by "flying leap", then, yeah he can take a bloody flying leap. And it doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about it, either. As to the statement about 90% of other movies, there are differences here and one is that Mr. Hunt was very aware of the laserdisc - in fact he wrote liner notes saying "I am extremely happy to have 1776 at last intact thanks to Pioneer LDCA... So, here it is, the complete, uncut, full-screen, stereo 1776." Was he under duress in writing that? If Pioneer and Columbia ran amok in 1991 adding the "whole load of laundry", why did he endorse it with glowing liner notes? He even did an enthusiastic commentary track as it unspooled. And 90% of other movies weren't cut after release against the director's wishes, that has only happened to a small percentage of films overall. I believed for years, until the 1776 DVD was released, that the laserdisc was indeed Mr. Hunts' preferred cut. Why wouldn't I with his endorsement on the liner notes? Anyway, I will shut up now and go 'watch my laserdisc and be happy".

Bryan,I think it's a matter of looking at the situation when those notes were written and that commentary recorded.in 1991, Mr. Hunt had given up all hope of ever seeing any part of the missing footage, having been assured it was destroyed in 1972. In that context, it was easy to overlook things that were not correct, in the interest of getting something that was vastly closer out there to the public. The budget was so astronomically tight for that Laserdisc you can't imagine, and of course he knew full well that any changes that would be made would have possibly jeopardized the whole project and cause a reversion to the old cut or outright cancellation.Plus liner notes are promotional, would you expect him to say something like "well, this is sort of what I wanted but enjoy it anyway as it's the best we can do"Now when the chance arrived to truly return the film to what was supposed to go out in 1972 in the first place, of course he took that opportunity. This isn't revisionist history like George Lucas, this is returning the film to what Hunt intended to go to theaters in 1972.

 

[bujaki]

He Plays the Violin is wonderfully staged. Mama Look Sharp always brings tears to my eyes. The "letters" sung by John and Abigail Adams are so full of tender, and yet pragmatic love.
1776 is such a wonderful show/film!

 

[Jack P]

#1-I have seen no paper documentation, no memo saying Nixon demands this be removed, nor is there anything on the White House tapes that suggest this was ever brought up. I believe Nixon may have disliked the piece and Jack Warner then decided, having already not liked the piece himself, to use that as the impetus on his own to remove it (like maybe if Nixon says, "Boy, this would be so much better if that number weren't in it"). That is not the same thing as responding to a government directive to remove it, which is the overall implication of the story. Yes, I've heard people say that, but that's not enough to satisfy a historian's standard of actual evidence.

#2-"Jack, you know full well that the additional music is illegal to be re-inserted". Sorry Moe, I'm not buying this argument. It was released with no repercussions in 1991, and furthermore I don't believe Peter Hunt's assertion about how the Overture was concocted out of thin air in 1991 and that at no time in the creative process was one ever considered. We have already heard from the person involved in this before that he used Ray Heindorf's notes to construct the Overture based on how it was potentally conceived for the film and the final results more than bear out that this is how a professional like Heindorf would have done it. You can repeat that assertion all you like that some ambulance-chasing lawyer can concoct a flimsy rationale for a lawsuit that lo and behold got past the legal department in 1991 regarding the use of music that appears in the film itself already, but I'm not buying it. But even if you were able to turn up an excuse that some permission is required then the solution to that problem would be as Judah said to Messala, "THEN GET IT!". Goodness knows I'd rather see whatever is put in the budget to take care of that then to saddle me with a "bonus" like the DVD release did that I could have cared less about like costume tests.

If he really has no problem with an alternate version, then he should at least make a good-faith effort to understand why the LD cut has special meaning to the fanbase. Absent that, I have little reason to have any warm feelings toward Hunt and his attitude toward this project which yes, is total revisionist history galore to spin his way out from under what is in documented print (and in his own voice) from 1991. But those again, are entirely my own feelings and never would I think of trying to discourage others who would think differently from buying an end product I personally will never have any use for.

 

[David Weicker]

I think the DVD would have received a better reception if the extra scenes had been at least included as an extra. Being able to see the full versions of "Piddle Twiddle And Resolve" and "Lees Of Old Virginia" would have soothed many of the unhappy voices (IMO).It was the impression that Mr. Hunt was personally responsible for their exclusion from the DVD that got a lot of people angry (along with his and other's statements that it was his film to do with what he wanted).

For myself, I would be disappointed if 1776 appeared on Blu-Ray, and the only version was the DVD version and the extra scenes were not even on the disk as extras.

 

[haineshisway]

Simply wanting the 1991 LD cut in full is not a crime, and if that is how some of us choose to base our decisions on how we choose to spend our money, that is our prerogative. Just as there are also many of us who won't buy any Blu-Rays of the SW trilogy until they include the original cuts.

I was able to enjoy "1776" for a good many years by appreciating the work put into it by *all* the people involved, and not as some people would evidently prefer to believe, that only one person was responsible for the end product.

Star Wars is not a good analogy as you well know. In fact, it's a pointless analogy because with the case of Star Wars you take the position that you ONLY want the films as they were originally released. Taking THAT position, then it should follow that you should ONLY want 1776 as it was released to theaters, Mr. Hunt and the laserdisc be damned. You see the point, I'm sure. But here's the thing - don't buy it. Pretty simple. Rather than making the same posts ad nauseum for YEARS (here and many years at Film Score Monthly), watch the laserdisc and be happy and don't give evil Peter Hunt and Sony your dough. Problem solved.

 

[haineshisway]

I certainly would have no problem with Mr. Hunt including extra stuff as extras - that would be just fine. Mr. Hunt is the director of 1776 and he had a version that he wanted released to theaters that wasn't. And now he has addressed that and has given the world the film as HE, the director, wanted. Moe, who knows this project intimately, understands everything. He's in the trenches and for some people on message boards to keep going on how they don't believe Peter Hunt or what Moe is saying, is just, well, it's just and I'll shut up

 

[Jack P]

Star Wars is not a good analogy as you well know.

Perfectly legitimate analogy. The original cuts were available before on home video and the fans of them merely want those cuts available again to "coexist" in the new and current format just as fans of the 1776 LD merely want that to "coexist" in the new format as well. If the new format is not available to us, then we simply make do with the old format, which thankfully is still available to those of us who have made sure we've learned how to properly transfer the LD to DVD-R and also maintain our LD players.

For those who go on and think Peter H. Hunt is blest with powers of infallibility, and who have hang-ups hearing him criticized ever that make them throw hissy fits ad nauseum reductio ad absurdium, I'll say nothing else.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

As to the Nixon thing, it was never a formal command. Nixon was running for re-election and thought of something like 1776 to whip up patriotic fervor and help him in this effort. Wouldn't do to have Cool Men in there tweaking conservatives. It said to Jack in the manner of "Gee, you'd really be doing me a favor if you took this out". Warner was a very patriotic man, an honorary Col, and when the commander in chief asks for a favor, well he complied. Nixon had history with this number too. It's also on record that the White House asked this number be deleted from the show when it was performed live in the East Room with the Broadway cast. The creative team asked why, they said it was for time, and so the team said we can make the cuts to whatever time is required.They performed the whole show in its entirety, the cast singing Cool Men loudly and DIRECTLY to Nixon.He got his revenge.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

Plus the fact that for the last 3+ years Hunt has been perfectly happy for a long version to come out alongside the Director's Cut seems to keep being forgotten. What we'd planned back in '11 would have actually had a lot of pieces in it that nobody has seen since the cutting room and the only things left out would be those that couldn't be included legally. And those weren't costume tests, they were screen tests of the actors, and very interesting in that they represent Hunt learning to work with the camera - the tests got more elaborate as they went and informed the style in which the film was shot.