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Will DVI render all current HDTVs obsolete? (1 Viewer)

TerryPM

Agent
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Nov 16, 1999
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In the past week I have read 2 separate articles on this topic, saying exactly that- that the DVI standard has been endorsed over Firewire, and all future HDTV set top boxes and sets will require DVI input to receive true HD signals. All other HD signals will be watered down to 480 to prevent copying.

If this is true, I don't understand why a revolt among the 2.5 million owners of current HDTVs hasn't already started.
 

RyanDinan

Stunt Coordinator
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Oct 25, 2000
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249
No -

STB's (Dish/DirecTV receivers) will not use HDCP/DVI outputs, because HDCP/DVI is for UNCOMPRESSED HD content - from devices such as D-VHS and possibly HD-DVD. Dish/DirecTV receivers deal with compressed content delievered over Firewire and component video.

HDCP/DVI makes no restrictions for full resolution analog HD outputs. However, DTCP does have provisions for image-constraint over those analog HD outputs. DTCP is what you should be worried about - Not HDCP/DVI.

There is talk that digital watermarking will be adopted into the current DTCP spec, which will "secure" the analog outputs, and remove the "need" for image-constraint.

-Ryan Dinan
 

Marc Rochkind

Second Unit
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Aug 26, 2000
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If by "obsolete" you mean "no longer useful," which is a definition I found in a dictionary, then the answer is no. Assuming the TV still works, there will be tons of source material for it for years, if not decades, to come.

However, if you mean "no longer the latest and greatest," then the answer is surely yes, because your TV won't be able to input a digital video signal.
 

Mike I

Supporting Actor
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Jan 20, 2000
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720
because your TV won't be able to input a digital video signal.

This is not entirely true...Broadcast ota tv will not be effected by any type of copy protection system if and when one is ever agreed on..Also for any crt tv there would still have to be a digital to analog conversion with any interface system used...
 

David Judah

Screenwriter
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Feb 11, 1999
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1,479
What I don't get, and I hope someone can clear this up for me, is that DVI sends uncompressed signals to the display device, but what medium is capable of sending uncompressed HD to the consumer? Every delivery system we have so far compresses the signal(OTA, satellite, & D-VHS).

DJ
 

TerryPM

Agent
Joined
Nov 16, 1999
Messages
39
Matt,

Thanks for the link to the thread. I did a search but for some reason did not come up with what I was looking for- I assumed there must have been an uproar somewher about this. I'm ready for a class action suit anytime.
 

RyanDinan

Stunt Coordinator
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Oct 25, 2000
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David,

D-VHS stores UNCOMPRESSED HD video, and is currently the only device out there so far that uses HDCP/DVI. HD-DVD will most-likely store COMPRESSED video, due to space limitations on the disc - So they'll probably use a Firewire connection to transport the signal.

-Ryan
 

Daryl Furkalo

Second Unit
Joined
Dec 8, 2000
Messages
372
RyanDinan,

Doesn't the JVC D-VHS D-theater vcr also have analog component outs? There is a firewire port to connect to a STB for taping HD content though, I think?
 

David Judah

Screenwriter
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Feb 11, 1999
Messages
1,479
D-VHS stores UNCOMPRESSED HD video
Thanks for your response, Ryan, but how is that possible, since uncompressed HD runs at about 1.4 GB/s and D-VHS runs at just under 29 MB/s? Even the D5 studio masters are compressed although not very much(around 4:1).

I just don't understand the benefit of uncompressed HD to the display device when it has to be lossy compressed to be delivered to the consumer.

I may very well be missing something in the equation, so any explanations would be most appreciated.

DJ
 

Drew Eckhardt

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
May 10, 2001
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The prevailing standards when I played with HD in my last professional life were HDP at 360Mbps and HDCAM at 270Mbps. The Phantom Menace screening was done using our boxes in both formats, with a noticeable difference on some scenes. OTA HD is a mere 19.2MBps, although you can't do an apples-to-apples comparison because the professional formats don't do interframe compression (this allows you to insert material at any point without recompressing the surrounding video and loosing quality).

Uncompressed is in the 1.2Gbps range (the same caveats apply)

You're not getting it in any thing close to uncompressed, and the 1394 transfer is no different than what was on the tape so DVI doesn't buy you anything.

It does however make time shifting/etc on consumer equipment (that might be hacked to work with 1394) impossible...
 

Bob_J_M

Agent
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Mar 12, 2002
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...Repeating what I heard elsewhere from a knowledgeable user...

The JVC D-VHS deck stores compressed video. It has a built-in MPEG-2 encoder for SD signals, which it can record from a variety of analog inputs or from its built-in tuner. It relies on external encoding for HD signals, which it can only record over firewire (presumably because it can't encode HD in real time). It has a built-in HD MPEG-2 decoder. Decoded output is via component analog only (at the present time, no DVI output). In addition, it can send the MPEG-2-encoded video out via firewire (e.g. to a forthcoming STB or a Mitsubishi display or...)
 

RyanDinan

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Oct 25, 2000
Messages
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The JVC D-VHS deck stores compressed video. It has a built-in MPEG-2 encoder for SD signals, which it can record from a variety of analog inputs or from its built-in tuner. It relies on external encoding for HD signals, which it can only record over firewire (presumably because it can't encode HD in real time). It has a built-in HD MPEG-2 decoder. Decoded output is via component analog only (at the present time, no DVI output). In addition, it can send the MPEG-2-encoded video out via firewire (e.g. to a forthcoming STB or a Mitsubishi display or...)
Hmm....I found this info over on Wired:
"JVC introduced the new D-VHS tape at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) along with a high definition television (HDTV) set that protects high definition content from being copied. Video on D-VHS tapes is uncompressed, so it's enormous. A 75GB hard disk would only hold around 30 minutes of the video, according to company officials, making the trading of HD content over the Internet impossible."
http://www.wired.com/news/technology...,41045,00.html
30 minutes on 75GB equals out to 333Mbps (600Gbits/1800 sec = .33Gbps x 1000 = 333Mbps).
I guess their definition of "uncompressed" is different?
-Ryan
 

Bob_J_M

Agent
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Messages
43
Ryan,
This info comes to us through a journalist. If the info was correct to begin with, it's surely garbled now ;) If you read between the lines and imagine a harried journalist scribbling notes during a presentation, you might deduce that the last sentence pertains to the HDCP protection employed by the "HDTV set that protects hi-def content from being copied." The JVC representative was probably explaining how HDCP works and the journalist got it all confused with D-VHS. In fact, this is the only reasonable explanation.
The entire manual for the JVC deck is available on the web. Someone - either here or in AVSForum - had the link. It lists the top data rates and shows that data is stored in MPEG-2 format.
 

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