Will DVD-Audio or SACD ever take off? (1 Viewer)

[Thomas Newton]

There are more cost effective ways to fight MP3 than launch a new format, although fighting copying may be part of the strategy.

Blocking copying and uncrippled computer use is one obvious reason for the existence of DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD. The record companies aren't satisfied with the "compromise" of the AHRA (which is already one-sided in their favor). They want to subtract value from their product at the very time they should be adding it.

Don't forget DataPlay ("disc format to replace the CD", like anyone wants to pay CD price for a 100 MB compressed, DRMed album on a disc that's easy to lose under the sofa cushions) and SDMI ("MagicGate", "OpenMG").

 

[RobBenton]

I would like to point out that formats like Minidisc and laserdisc both did quiet well for a long time (and minidiscs are still doing well) and both of those are niche formats that are not the standard. I would like to say that I doubt microsoft will ever jump on board with MP3.

 

[Philip Hamm]

The number of specialty formats that have survived is.... zero. (LP doesn't count because not only was it the predominant format for awhile, it was the only full-length format for awhile.)

The problem with specialty formats is that they generally only have a limited selection.

Hey Ken, ever heard of a little specialty format called "LaserDisc"? There! I thought you did! LD was a slow starter, but was going strong for at least a decade as a specialty format and those of us who cared enough about A/V to buy it were damn happy with it. Sure it didn't have the selction of VHS, but most titles came out for it.

I see DVD-A and SACD being audio equivalents of LaserDisc over the next decades.

Needless to say I disagree with the rest of your post.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Hey Ken, ever heard of a little specialty format called "LaserDisc"?

Good example Philip. I'm so glad I got on the Laserdisc bandwagon. I still my Indiana Jones and Star Wars laser and I have a good selection of other things not out on DVD. Title selection was excellent for Laserdisc.

I personally don't care if SACD and DVDA become niche markets, as long as they stick around and offer a nice amount of great albums. The jazz music available on SACD is already strong as are classical albums and many prominent labels like Harmonia Mundi are about to step in.

 

[Ken Stuart]

I see DVD-A and SACD being audio equivalents of LaserDisc

That's exactly what I am saying.

Formats that will never catch on because they are aimed at a tiny fraction of the market, with the media costing twice as much as they should otherwise, and only playable on equipment that the average person doesn't own.

Some of you are living in a fantasy world.

In the past 12 months,

 

[Mike Broadman]

Hi rez formats are not being marketed for the mainstream. To say that they failed or will fail at a goal they're not trying to accomplish is silly.

They will never replace CDs because they're not supposed to replace CDs.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Well, I have no idea what the goals of the DVD-A and SACD makers really are, except the almighty $$$ however that might come about (or how THEY think it might come about).

I do seriously doubt they don't have a goal for either DVD-A or SACD or both to eventually replace redbook CD to a great extent. I certainly don't know exactly what extent and what kind of pace they intended and/or are planning right now, but I seriously doubt they would bother to produce these new formats w/out some goals for them to get anywhere beyond a tiny niche market even if that's exactly where they look to be headed.

While it can be quite amusing to watch a movie where the premise involves a $1 bet between some big tycoon brothers over something as silly as what it takes (or not at all) to become a successful commodities trading guru, I seriously doubt that's what's going on here w/ DVD-A and SACD.

And don't forget that the success of whatever format will also impact hardware and/or licensing revenues for the same companies (or their parent or sibling companies), which is partly why there are format wars.

_Man_

 

[Rich Malloy]

Sony states they developed DSD first and foremost as a means to archive their deteriorating analog tapes, and secondarily as a niche consumer media (SACD) for audiophiles, but certainly they're salivating over the prospect of a replacement format for CD. There's the copy-protection thing, of course, but I also think there are patent-related reasons why Philips/Sony would love to see the mainstream move to SACD.

As to whether SACD will ever "take off", I can assure you it does every evening over at my place!

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Rich,

I sure wish I could say the same about SACD "taking off" every evening over at my place also.

We shall see...

BTW, I received my batch of SACDs from the Tower sale. Will go check out the SACD players at J&R (and buy one) as soon as I have time these next few days. Sure hope the improvement over redbook CD will be very satisfying for me. Otherwise, I'll have to dump the batch for sale since most are not hybrids...

_Man_

 

[Philip Hamm]

Ken,

You completely lost me with your last post.

Are you saying that any product aimed at a niche market is a failure by definition? Anyone who uses it is living in a "fantasy world"?

Ever heard of a "hobby"? Some people have hobbies. Like model trains, knitting, stamp collecting, etc. etc. etc. High end audio is a "hobby". If there are enough people to serve a profitable market in this hobby what's wrong with that?

How many people do you know would, if asked, say that they don't like music? I don't know anyone like that personally. Just because somebody likes music doesn't mean they have to be audiophiles.

I still don't understand where you're going with your last post at all.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Sure hope the improvement over redbook CD will be very satisfying for me.

I doubt you will have any problems if you have a decent playback system. Almost all of my SACDs are a leap over any redbook. You get 64x more musical information and that shows up on every note transient and instrumental solo.

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

Here we go again.

This claim

64x more musical information

is demonstrably false. Due to the fact that different encoding schmes in use, you can't even make that type of straight up comparison. Let's play the game in reverse, to demonstrate how ill informed the above statement is.


CD contains 32,768x the musical information vs. SACD, since each sample is 16 bits deep, instead of 1 bit deep.

Both are blatantly incorrect.

For someone that is supposedly up on all this stuff, you've demonstrated an alarming lack of concern over technical accuracy.

Regards,

 

[Ken Stuart]

Are you saying that any product aimed at a niche market is a failure by definition?

Here is an example.

Suppose you get an idea for a better speaker. You start "Audio Fizbob Corporation" and make speakers in your garage.

If I replace my speakers with your speakers, then every piece of music I play, whether it is LP, CD, SACD or even a movie DVD, will sound better.

If I tell my friends, and so on, then you can continue making Audio Fizbob Speakers for years - even though it is a niche market and at most you only employ a couple of people.

However, if this weekend I develop a new audio media which has as its sole feature that the sound is significantly better, then no matter how good it is, if I am a marketing genius, I'll still only be able to sell less than 1% of total audio media sales - because most people don't care about sound quality (otherwise Apple would be selling SACDs and SACD players instead of MP3s and MP3 players).

And, if my new audio media only sells less than 1%, then I won't have the clout to put out Madonna, Metallica and Led Zeppelin on my new audio media. Instead, I'll have to put out public domain works as performed by the Antarctica Symphony Orchestra. (For example, I have a couple of LPs on the "Opus 3" label that are as good or better recordings than anything ever done - but I have absolutely no interested in hearing any of them again. )

SO, a niche speaker company can make all my music sound better, while a niche media will not have the music I want to listen to at all.

Will The Matrix Reloaded be issued on laserdisk? Is the Matrix Reloaded soundtrack on SACD or DVD-Audio?

 

[Mike Broadman]

Yeah, but your speakers will still sell a tiny percentage compared to other speakers because most people buy component systems or use headphones.

Hi-res and fancy-ass speakers appeal to the same market- the audiophile.

 

[LanceJ]

fancy-ass speakers

When did Jennifer Lopez enter the hi-fi biz? ......

LJ

 

[Philip Hamm]

Ken,

I think you're completely missing the whole point.

Think about LaserDisc in 1996.

80-90% of all major label video releases came out on LaserDisc as well as VHS. LaserDisc was well less than 1% of the video market. The LaserDisc versions were released and sold for this small market despite the fact that it was only 1%. It was profitable, and industry insiders all used it because of the better quality. These LaserDisc versions were dramatically superior to the VHS tapes.

I see no reason why SACD and DVD-A can't successfully cater to that same kind of market. No reason at all whatsoever. Sure it's slow starting (as LD was) and won't receive everything (as LD didn't), but the market is steadily growing and as production and mastering become more economical we'll see more of what we want.

 

[gregD]

Yeah, but... it wouldn't hurt to develop something that the mass market could jump on, and accelerate the process a little bit... it's been some years now, and the same problems persist: scarcity of software, player prices, and the players themselves which fairly require annual upgrading to actually realize the hi-res benefit.

Like computers, they're underdeveloped and overmarketed.

Like computers, we're expected to upgrade regularly --- wrong!

Given the success of DVD, and significant number of households with some kind of home theatre (however modest), why can't there be an affordable, idiot-proof Universal Player - with simple idiot-proof digital connections for audio and video - that offers the added value of ease of use ("Plays All Discs!") and enhanced sonics ("Surround Sound!")... and market it smartly ("Ultimate!" "Last Player You'll Ever Need!")... this is pretty much how DVD got going.

Get those wheels rolling, and there can be capital to launch more titles and create upscale players for the more critical niche group... myself, I can only afford to jump in with a universal player, but I don't see one even at the $1k point that justifies the jump (I acknowledge the 2900 is close, but how about a similar $500 box?).

I've got laserdiscs... they're nice enough, but too few of them have DD audio, and frankly, it would be nice if they were all DVD-sized... successful or not, that format is history, and soon players will be impossible to find.

The original question, will it take off?... not at this pace.