Why "testing" for cable differences is ridiculous. (1 Viewer)

[Jim A. Banville]

Do you think that the "green CD marking pens" can make a difference in the sound of CDs?

I have actuall tried that too! There is a reasonable theory behind it. It is supposed to absorb stray "light" that bounces around inside the plastic disc. Makes sense to me, just as placing sound absorbing materials in a room would absorb sound waves bouncing around. Did I hear a difference with the paint? Nope. During your test, were you aware of which CD you were listening to (painted/non-painted), or was it a "blind" test? If it were blind and you were 100% correct (and the tester told you the test was random and he may or may not switch CD's) then I would say that you proved you could hear a difference. Again, true or not, there is a reasonable theory behind it. There is no reasonable theory why two cables that measure the same would "sound" different.

 

[Mike Knapp]

Yes, but only in terms of looks and longevity, not performance.

Why? What make them different from anything else you have experienced?

I concur that more expensive almost always means better. Im just wondering why you feel that audio cables are the exception.

 

[Mike Knapp]

Hey Mike, when you switched over to Better Cables new component cables, did you have to re-calibrate your TV?

Yes, yes I did.

Mike

 

[Jim A. Banville]

So cables get the magic pass? You have a lifetime of experience where more expensive things are better all around (including performance), except cables? Sounds logical.

"Magic pass"? Perhaps you should read my post again and not assume things not written. First of all, I said "more often than not", which means NOT ALWAYS. Second, did I say that ALL the attributes that would justify a higher price are ALWAYS there? No. A more expensive product may ONLY look better vs. a cheaper product. A more expensive product may ONLY last longer vs. a cheaper product. And, to repeat myself, in the world of audio/video cables, a higher price USUALLY gets you better looks and longevity, but NOT preformance.

 

[Jim A. Banville]

I concur that more expensive almost always means better. Im just wondering why you feel that audio cables are the exception.

I don't feel that more expensive cables offer higher performance vs. a cheaper, properly constructed cable. I base this on my "life experience" in having testing them in my own system. More expensive cable do often look better and last longer than the cheaper alternative, but it is there that they stop improving upon the cheaper version.

 

[Jim A. Banville]

Hey Mike, when you switched over to Better Cables new component cables, did you have to re-calibrate your TV?

Again, I have never needed to re-calibrate my display when I switched cables (I went from in-the-box freebies to Monster Video standard, to Monster Video 1 and finally to hand-made Canare/Belben "Video Brilliance" cables). But what if I did need to recalibrate after switching? What if the new cable gave a darker picture? And raisng the BRIGHTNESS level alone brought it back to the calibrated level. Is the resulting picture "better" or just different? Eiother way, the cables in question would obviously measure different. WBy the way, I do use a few expensive cables in my system. Because they perform better? Well, I see no difference. The more expensive cables look better than the old and seem more robust.

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

I have actuall tried that too! There is a reasonable theory behind it. It is supposed to absorb stray "light" that bounces around inside the plastic disc. Makes sense to me, just as placing sound absorbing materials in a room would absorb sound waves bouncing around. Did I hear a difference with the paint? Nope. During your test, were you aware of which CD you were listening to (painted/non-painted), or was it a "blind" test? If it were blind and you were 100% correct (and the tester told you the test was random and he may or may not switch CD's) then I would say that you proved you could hear a difference. Again, true or not, there is a reasonable theory behind it. There is no reasonable theory why two cables that measure the same would "sound" different.

We had no idea what we were listening to, other than that he "might" have switched CDs. So, I think this would have qualified as a blind test. I'll bet that there was no measurable difference between the CDs, but there sure was an audible one.

 

[AjayM]

Quote:

Just as audio cables do.
Andrew

 

[Jim A. Banville]

Just as audio cables do.

Cables that measure the same, sound & look the same. Prove me wrong

 

[Jim A. Banville]

We had no idea what we were listening to, other than that he "might" have switched CDs. So, I think this would have qualified as a blind test. I'll bet that there was no measurable difference between the CDs, but there sure was an audible one.

Cool! So the pen does make a difference The "theory" sounds reasonable to me. Cables that measure the same, but sound different doesn't sound reasonable to me.

 

[AjayM]

Cables that measure the same, sound & look the same. Prove me wrong

Right, first we show you people who have done blind tests with cables and were correct 8 out of 10 (which is statistically a difference BTW), but that's not good enough for you it has to be 100% (which isn't used in any type of blind test anywhere). Then we show you people who have changed video cables and saw a difference (which was measured through calibration), but that's because the cable is a "tone control" cable. Now we're back to measuring cables.

Ok, you list to me all of the cables that measure the same, give me the same specs that I gave you earlier in one of these thread (basically LCR), and we'll just have a look and see how much different they are?

Andrew

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

Cables that measure the same, but sound different doesn't sound reasonable to me.

We're not even close to being able to measure all that we can see or hear, yet.

 

[Jim A. Banville]

Right, first we show you people who have done blind tests with cables and were correct 8 out of 10 (which is statistically a difference BTW), but that's not good enough for you it has to be 100% (which isn't used in any type of blind test anywhere).

Pardon my French, but SCREW statistics! As mentioned previously, do I need statistical analysis to help me identify a chocolate bar from a hotdog in a blind taste test? Nope. I guarantee you that I can tell the difference 100% of the time!

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

(Jim, because Miss Cleo and John Edwards and the like are frauds, pure and simple. There is no afterlife, so, obviously, they can't talk to dead people. www.skeptic.com)
We're talking about human perception, here. I don't think you'll find many reputable scientists who will claim that we know everything there is to know about seeing or hearing. For example, certainly not enough to measure why you can clearly hear height cues on well-recorded music. What do you measure that will tell you the vocalist is 3 feet higher than the bass drum?
Why so angry - this is a hobby, not world peace?

 

[Jim A. Banville]

What do you measure that will tell you the vocalist is 3 feet higher than the bass drum?

There are probably several reasons why you would hear this that aren't related to measurements. Perhaps people relate lower noises to lower elevations. Perhaps the placement of the low end transducer on the speaker. Perhaps it's your room's acoustics. Perhaps its memory of where the music should come from after having been to a live performance, or just "knowing" where the instruments should be placed. In the end I think it boils down to a "trick" of the mind, a.k.a. psycho-acoustics

 

[AjayM]

Quote:

And I can tell the difference between a TV and a cable 100% of the time (they're both electronic components, just the same as hot dogs and chocolate are both foods).
Maybe a better test for you would be to pick your favorite hot dog brand and we'll do a blind test with you against the cheapest, generic hot dogs we can find and the most expensive hot dog we can find. If you can't get it right 100% of the time, we can then conclude all hot dogs are the same.
Andrew

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

There are probably several reasons why you would hear this that aren't related to measurements. Perhaps people relate lower noises to lower elevations. Perhaps the placement of the low end transducer on the speaker. Perhaps it's your room's acoustics. Perhaps its memory of where the music should come from after having been to a live performance, or just "knowing" where the instruments should be placed. In the end I think it boils down to a "trick" of the mind, a.k.a. psycho-acoustics

Which, to me, says that the mind can hear many things that instruments can't measure. So why don't you believe the people who say they can hear differences between cables?

 

[Jim A. Banville]

Maybe a better test for you would be to pick your favorite hot dog brand and we'll do a blind test with you against the cheapest, generic hot dogs we can find and the most expensive hot dog we can find. If you can't get it right 100% of the time, we can then conclude all hot dogs are the same.

What you're actually testing is my ABILITY to distinguish one hotdog from another. Perhaps I have a golden palet(sp?), perhaps I don't. I never claimed to have one. I can sure as hell tell the difference between a hotdog and a chocolate bar. But some people around here have claimed to have golden ears that can distinguish between audio cables. Those are the claims I'd like to see put to the test

 

[Jim A. Banville]

Which, to me, says that the mind can hear many things that instruments can't measure. So why don't you believe the people who say they can hear differences between cables?

Because they can't prove it.

If I make 10 live recordings, each having the vocalist in a different position, and you are able to pinpoint their location in each, then as far as I'm concerned, you have proven that you can pick out a vocalist's position on a recording.

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

But what if your recording wasn't good enough to contain the cues necessary for me to hear "height"? It would be an easy way for you to disprove my contention that I could discern height in a recording.
Obviously, we've drifted far away from cables!
I think the end-user is the only person who can decide whether or not a cable purchase is the right one for them.