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Why people accept the lie, told by mass media, that digital it's perfect??? (1 Viewer)

Alberto_D

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I see it many times, commercials, the suggestion, the lie : "Digital perfection "... "digital quality"

And most people believe, fooling thenselves.

I phone call the signed sat TV consumer assistence, and complain about the horrible quality, with digital comporession artefact all the way and details vanished, and all the blur, blurry images, and they just say : "Sr, it's digital quality, it's perfect". "You must be watching a very olf film that was already bad".
If a techncian is on home, he offends my intelligende, when I spot HD 1080p channels looking worse than DVD, and he tells me : "That's because it's not 4K."

People accept digital video artefacts in shadows, popping as a herll, accept loss of texture due high compression rates, accept banding effect artefacts where should be a natural gradient like in a sunset scene, and accept it became 4 times whorse if it's during a fade out.

What about 1080p HDTV.. they said it have a resolution area more then 4 times greater than a DVD (480p), but in reality if we would create a mosaic, filling the 1080p screen with 4 DVD videos, and then cut one and watch comprared to the real DVD, the image would have lost most of details and textures. Yes, the compression used in most TV broadcast it's so ba that would do that. People watxh in TVs no large enough or watcxh too far away, to notice that the 1080p broadcast it's very bad, specially in some countries like mine.

What about 4K films... Again, TV screen not large enough and people sit far away, don't notice 4K details to realise most editions on UHD blu ray it's just interpolation of 2K files, since most movies is finished in 2K resolution. And if LCD was larger, like double, you would need double distance from screen to avoid much distortions of light distribution along screen area.
So, if people are so fooled by lies, producers, TVs, compression rates, and pay channels push crap quality to people, they will be even more about 4K and 8K, cause will have no way to measure, to notice it's not a true claimed resolution.

Take a VHS and record a VHS tape in SP speed, from a prime DVD edition. You will have a nice video for a VHS resoltuion limitations (352×240 pixels), if watch in a CRT flat screen. Now take a 4K video, and create a create a mosaic in such way to fill the 4K frame with hundred of VHS images. Encode it the best you can, then cut one piece of the mosaic and watch in a CRT TV, comparing to the first VHS used in beggining.

Encoders used in HDTV and 4k creates a lot of loss of textures during motion, even soft low motion. These loss is, proportional measures, higher than the percentage of loss DVD encoders created. I see all the time on TV, any motion leading to blur all fine tectures.
So digital home video technology it's far, ver far away from perfection !!!!!!!!

Now lets put the encoders and decoder and broadcast by side, and focus to the screen devices most used today. LCD TVS and LED (just LED backlight on LCD scrren) TVs.

-All LCD TV looks bad, horrible for me at least. All have trash view angle, despite some manufacturers state 170 degree degree, since with even 15 or 10 degree I notice difference in brightness and uneval light along screen area.
-|Even direct straight to the screen I notice the center is brlighter than the edges, even on IPS LCD screen.
-LCD have contrast standart diferent from CRTs, making images fadded, murky, unless you increase contrast adjust a lot, creating annoying clipped whites and crushed shadows. It's similar to the times of PC DVD kit using Power DVD in a computer with CRT monitor, that always looked worse (faded), in terms of contrast, than the best CRT TVs.
-The problem with refreshing rates make horizontal motion softer, even if the video was originally sharp. This is easily noticeable in some tablets, when with pull and push text, upper and dow, and the letters got blured.
-The response time usually make it bad for games. The LCDs with better response time are usually the worst for view angles.
-4K LCD TVs needs to watch close to see true 4K details, if the video is trull4K and not interpolation from 2K source (as most 4K discs are) or less. If you sit close enough to see the 4K details you will face distortion in light distribuion along screen, in LCD TVs, even for TVs with IPS screen. So, for 8K, it's ridiculous to consider...
-HDR TV. These TVs are almost a lie. First the non HDR signals looks like all LCD TVs, poor in dynamic range showing clipped and crushed tones, worse than CRT. And the signals in HDR just look as a expanded dynamix range photo treated in photoshop, and still ahve some clipping in highlightes.

-Plasma TVs create burn in effect, so it's not a good idea for use as monitor or to watch any film with black bars.

-OLED TV cost twice more, have a 50% lifespam compared to LCD, so it's like 4 times more expansive for long term. It also have bur in effect and have lower luminous power.

There is even some movie theater using digital systems that have images artefacts of video compression.. You paid a absurd price for tickets, pay 3 times more for pop corn than in any other place, to watch video compression artefacts in some situations.

That it folks. I don't approve digital technology to be called perfect or great. It's far from it. To me image quality only got worse in my country for TV broadcast, for contrast, gradients, motion scenes... I almost don't watch TV anymore.
 

Alberto_D

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SP, EP, and SLP... I know it very well
But SP looked good if recored from a prime DVD edition, and watched in a CRT TV.

Some sealed VHS tapes, buy from distributers looked good until they created machines able to record tapes in very short time, reducing in noticeable way the quality of SP speed sealed tapes just to reduce manufacturer costs. By sealed I mean official tapes made from distributer authorized for it, and not pirate tapes or tapes recorded from other VHS tapes.

1080 resolution, in mathematical language, should look many many... times better than SP speed VHS. But in practical... it can look even worse in very high compressed HD films in motion scenes. Believe me, I saw it.
And a technician will always create some stupid revoltant escuse. This makes me crazy. And people around me say I'm worng, than I complain too much. I hate, really hate people who don't know what is quality.
Image artefacts on screen wide as two or more thumb fingers, and the technician saying : "It's because it's not 4K" If I had no education I would had called hin of many very unpleasant things.


Analog can look and sound pretty bad too. Have you ever watched an EP VHS recording?

As with most things, poor implementation will yield poor results.

---------------
 

Sam Posten

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Honestly? Based on a bunch of your recent posts it seems like you are just spoiling for a fight on these topics. The only one who is upset about them is you and the way you are approaching these conversations indicates you aren’t interested in a conversation or discussing different view points but just in shouting your own.
 

Josh Steinberg

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I don't quite understand the agenda here????

I think it's an effort to get us to all agree that all TV innovations since the end of CRT (i.e. since the 1990s) are in fact terrible and unwatchable and of unbelievably poor quality. I am unlikely to agree with that premise, as I've had some very nice TVs since the end of CRT that I remain satisfied with.
 

Robert Crawford

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I think it's an effort to get us to all agree that all TV innovations since the end of CRT (i.e. since the 1990s) are in fact terrible and unwatchable and of unbelievably poor quality. I am unlikely to agree with that premise, as I've had some very nice TVs since the end of CRT that I remain satisfied with.
Well, if that's his agenda then he can count me as one that doesn't agree with that premise. Over and out, no need to post anything further from me.
 

Brent Reid

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Troll Make Internet Mad meme.jpg
 

Alberto_D

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Ok, maybe I made too much comments together at once.

How should I manage this topic to allow you guys feel confortable in a civilized conversation ?
Tell me and I will try be more according to.

Maybe you just got cross fire. I tried to point my dislike to the downsides of technology, and maybe some of you felt it was againt you. I ensure it wasn't the intention.

Let me know how you use to debate in this forum, the preferences. One point at time, instead of a large post trying to post all together, to allow each member reply step by step ?
My register is old, but I started post in this forum about a week ago. Maybe I didn't got the right atmosphere yet to fit well in the usual way and rules you already follow.
 

Alberto_D

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I can make better. Come on, gave me a chance to prove I'm not a troll.

I write in a forum for health ans aesthetic, help many people. But when I complaim about something like technoloy I use to be pejorative to what I complaim, and sometimes people in a web conversation believe this was directed to them, but indeed it was just a frustration with technology.

Ok, let's change the direction a bit.

I will listen to you guys point the best aspects of the latest technology you had chance to check.
OLED lastest news... New HDR 10... New dilla projector... New codec being developed for better encoding...

A troll don' listen, so if I listen I'm not a troll.


 

Tino

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I don’t think you’re a troll Alberto. Just perhaps intolerant of opinions other than you’re own.

Your post are somewhat condescending as tho we are fools for enjoying what we do. That you are absolutely right and that we are poor lemmings.

That’s how your posts come across to me. I know English isn’t your primary language so I hope your true meaning is just lost in the translation.
 

Alberto_D

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Let me get better. Maybe my feeling toward tecno problems leaked in a way you guys felt yourselves as a target.
When I said people made me sick, or that sort of thing, I refered people here (home not web), watching the same as me and saying that what I pointed in front of them did not exist. Maybe the forum member wrongly understood I refered to them, forum members.

The HD here is not good as in USA and Japan. It's way more compressed and degraded, specially for the mini sat antenna signed/pay TV. So the reference for quality have different standarts.

How should I behave to be up to this forum espectations in a debate for tecnology ?
One point, one characteristic by time, to allow everyone debate each thing, and move on step by step for each thing ?

Well I can try. I just need to put my feeling of disapointed (about technology) by side, slow down, and listen more.

I don’t think you’re a troll Alberto. Just perhaps intolerant of opinions other than you’re own.
 
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Vic Pardo

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Some things look great on VHS. Many things look great on DVD. Some things look great on Blu-ray. Many things look great on high-def TV. Some things look great on streaming. Sometimes they don't. Mistakes get made. No technology is perfect. I miss my 13-inch CRT TV/VCR combo. I loved watching tapes of movies and TV shows on that. I had one set up on a stool in my bedroom to watch stuff at night. It wasn't connected to cable. I've had more than one of those, however, and they all failed some way. Now I have to make do with a 19-inch flat screen on a board on the same stool, connected to a DVD/VCR combo player on a folding chair next to it. I've even got a Sony Blu-ray player capable of playing code-free DVDs connected to it also, perched on top of the DVD/VCR. The range of viewing experiences has enhanced considerably, so the trade/off is acceptable. I still watch VHS tapes on it, both EP and SP, but they looked better on the 13-inch monitor. The DVDs, however, look better on this monitor and I can now watch Blu-ray in the bedroom, which I couldn't before.

I have thousands of unwatched movies and TV shows on VHS, recorded off broadcast and cable TV over the decades, as well as hundreds I want to re-watch, and I still want to watch them all. I don't have time in this life to do so, but I get pleasure out of the ones I manage to watch. Last year, I watched hundreds of movies and TV shows, mostly on DVD, but also on Blu-ray, cable, Amazon Prime, YouTube and VHS. I watched 23 movies and 24 TV shows on VHS. Not as many as I used to watch in that format, because of all the competition from other formats and venues, but still significant. Since the start of the new year, I've watched one previously unseen film by one of my favorite directors recorded on VHS off TCM (BIG LEAGUER by Robert Aldrich) and enjoyed it a great deal. I also took a random tape made on a Saturday in February 2004 with anime TV episodes from Kids WB, ABC Family and the Cartoon Network and watched eight episodes from five different shows and got all nostalgic for a time when anime seemed to rule certain airwaves. I have hundreds of anime DVDs, but none with those episodes. I had a blast.
 
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Tino

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Let me get better. Maybe my feeling toward tecno problems leaked in a way you guys felt yourselves as a target.
When I said people made me sick, or that sort of thing, I refered people here (home not web), watching the same as me and saying that what I pointed in front of them did not exist. Maybe the forum member wrongly understood I refered to them, forum members.

The HD here is not good as in USA and Japan. It's way more compressed and degraded, specially for the mini sat antenna signed/pay TV. So the reference for quality have different standarts.

How should I behave to be up to this forum espectations in a debate for tecnology ?
One point, one characteristic by time, to allow everyone debate each thing, and move on step by step for each thing ?

Well I can try. I just need to put my feeling of disapointed (about technology) by side, slow down, and listen more.
In my opinion, You need to relax Alberto. And not sound so angry and frustrated. Ask more questions and listen to the answers from the members here.

They are the best most knowledgeable and respectful on the web.
 

Mark-P

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What I’m getting from this is that Alberto’s main complaint is digital compression artifacts. That is completely due to the source. So while your cable company controls the data rate of each channel, they are responsible for the bad picture quality. The same goes for streaming services. Blu-rays and 4K UHD Blu-rays should be virtually artifact-free, unless the company that puts out the disc does a really crappy job.
 
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Alberto_D

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Tino, I will keep your tips in mind.
But look what happened other day:

I showed a frame of Gone with the Wind 1080p to a person here (my country) in a 50 inch TV, and said the movie was shot nearly 80 years ago. It looked way better than any image from any HD channel in my country. It was a scene where the camera focused close in Vivian Leigh's face, and the background was out of focus, since it wasn't Citzen Kane deep focus tricks.
That person, instead of point the sharp fine details on Scarlet's face (which I showed carefully) and admit it was better than any other image from the HD channels here, just pointed to the background and told me : "It's not any good, I see the entire space there out of focus." Latter that person said angrily that i didn't know nothing about video quality.

Ok, you can laugh... it's so disturbing that it's funny...

I invete others to share some weird stories you have about video too.
And I see many forum member have hi end projectors. I neve saw a hi end home projector, jus medium quality stuff.
How is going the advances with Hi end projection technology, compared to HD and UHD TVs ?
 

Alberto_D

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You are right.

The first digital sat (mini parabolic antenna) "cabble" company, when started many years ago, have few channels and quite good digital image, with no noticeable artefacts. But looking to a channel present in this digital and that was also available in open TV broadcast (analogic), and comparing both, changing fastly from one AV enter to another, we saw the digital add a little bit soft effect on edges and textures. So it was already a bit worse than a ideal analogic, at least in sharp textures aspects, but still good.
WIth time they start to add more and more channels, and the space was the same, and as result they started compress the image more and more. When they start to add HD channels, and kept the SD channels versions for lower price offers, the quality had a giant drop and the image got over artefacted in very short time. The SD got as bad as good VHS and the HD was no better, and mostly worse, than the DVD.
I 'was like the HD was interpolations from DVD with heavy artefacts added. Just contourns of objects and characters had a HD little feeling, and all textures and details got somewhat blured or softned, and all walls or surfaces like that lost any gradients and became like made by just 4 tones in a banding digital effect.
So for my perpective in this particular situation, things was getting worse and worse, while technology advances should in theory bring better video presentations.

You may ask how people can pay for watch such thing. I ask this too. People here (Brazil) don't care about quality. And the few who do don't use to boycott bad services. So things never change.

Open TV HD broadcast here it's "less worse" than the "cable (mini sat) TV service.
Netfix here it's better than open HD broadcast, but all dark or not bright scene have a lot of visible artefacts. For example, a Disney TV series for kids, in a very bright studios set, will looks reasonable, but sharp textures suffer somehow. For other side Supergirl fighting a some place not bright, will show many artefacts for any shadow and a lot in a night scene. Netfix services are limited by the fact brazilian internet average speed it's slow compared to USA, Europe...

I bet in USA HDTV broadcast and Netfix are closer to Blu ray quality.


What I’m getting from this is that Alberto’s main complaint is digital compression artifacts. That is completely due to the source. So while your cable company controls the data rate of each channel, they are responsible for the bad picture quality. The same goes for streaming services. Blu-rays and 4K UHD Blu-rays should be virtually artifact-free, unless the company that puts out the disc does a really crappy job.
 

bigshot

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I work in the film business and have acted as a post production supervisor on TV shows. I'm old enough to have worked all analogue and I still work digitally.

I would NEVER go back to analogue technology. It was incredibly wasteful, time consuming and rife with problems. I can do MUCH more sophisticated work with digital.

I remember when I was a kid dreaming of the future and how great it would be. "In the future, you'll be able to carry around your entire record collection in your pocket, and it'll sound perfect with no pops or clicks!" "You'll be able to have TV shows and movies in your home- just like in a theater!"

Now I do that.
 

Sam Posten

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@Alberto_D , can I make a totally completely off topic suggestion? Forget about Home Theater for a minute and spend a few hours reading the threads at:
http://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart

Now reflect a bit about how folks might be viewing your comments as coming across that way when you talk about this hobby.

There is no score here. You don't 'win' by having knowledge banked or converting people to your way of thinking. You just convince them that it isn't worth their time to discuss anything with you because it's exhausting trying to have a conversation with someone who comes across the way you are.

We are giving you the benefit of the doubt when you say you want to get better. Getting better doesn't mean getting more ammunition but leaning how to listen and relax when someone doesn't agree with you or have your level of background and passion.

Passion is AWESOME. Passion displayed or deployed as a weapon is insufferable.
 

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